Windows Phone 7 gorges on your data limit? – More trouble ahead for WP7?

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Anyone who has been following tech news since the release of Microsoft’s “me too” phone, may have observed like I, a distinct lack of interest both from users and developers.  I certainly didn’t see it trending on Twitter and a quick Google search brings up more articles on Microsoft being tight-lipped about sales than it does about any screams of excitement.  In fact I am very hard pushed to see what it is that Microsoft is actually offering with this phone that has not already been established on both Android phones and with Apple.   Mind you, I must not be alone in this observation since you just need to look at how many Android activations there are daily.

Apparently tight-lipped Microsoft at the CES this year maintained its stance, with Mary Jo Foley remarking on Steve Ballmer’s keynote speech:

At the kick-off Consumer Electronics Show (CES) 2011 keynote by Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer on January 5, the more interesting bits were what Ballmer didn’t say…….He didn’t offer Windows Phone 7 sales numbers. (Microsoft said recently it had sold 1.5 million WP7 devices, but later admitted it had sold these to carriers, not consumers.)……

Source: ZDnet

and whilst Microsoft took one of its opportunities at CES to promote a new mouse its “innovated, all is not apparently well on the WP7.  PCWorld reports:

Reports across the web are surfacing that Microsoft has a serious problem with Windows Phone 7 that may become very expensive for some: the OS seems to use an awful lot of cellular bandwidth, even when idle. This means those with smaller data plans may find themselves in for a shock when their bill arrives.

Source: PCWorld

Paul Thurrott responded to a complaint regarding the bandwidth gorging by saying:

Yes, this is a curiously common problem, and I’m sort of shocked Microsoft hasn’t addressed this publicly yet, either to confirm it or to offer a fix. Basically what’s happening is that the phone is utilizing the 3G data connection even when Wi-Fi is available. It’s not clear what app(s) or part(s) of the OS is causing this, but it’s definitely widely-reported…..Microsoft? If this is your fault, as I suspect, you’re costing people money on this one.

Source: Paul Thurrott

I’d suggest though that anyone on a limited data-plan the problem would be more than “curious”, especially if they get charged extra for going over their agreed data limit.

Just like the real WP7 sales figures, Microsoft is yet to comment.  I’d suggest to Microsoft that if this allegation is true then they better start to find more Android phones to skim some profit from, if the WP7 has this type of issue now, it could be the final nail in the coffin for the phone and with it, Microsoft’s hopes of ever cracking the Smartphone market.

Goblin – bytes4free@googlemail.com / TwitterIdenti.ca

You can also contact me on Skype: tim.openbytes

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35 Comments Add yours

  1. keyboardP says:

    I’ve written a post on my blog as to possible causes and solutions. Might be useful.

  2. openbytes says:

    Thanks for that, so what you are saying is that already users will have to take precautions, changing settings et al just to prevent this?

    If so, this sort of highlights my point at the end and one of my issues with Windows on the desktop, from my observations people create workarounds and suffer numerous patches just to make Microsoft products work? This is what is going to compete with Android phones and the iphone is it?

    Quote “When I got my phone, the first thing I did was to turn off my ‘Data Connection’ and ’3G connection’. This ensures that the phone exclusively uses wifi.”

    But on my Android phone I have a data plan that I want to use, I don’t want to have to switch it off and on when required, I am damn sure people would just like a phone that worked, not one where have to remember to switch off their data connection when they don’t need it.

    Quote “…..but if you’ve found your phone to be sending excess data, you could use this as a test to see if it stops.”

    And so it appears WP7 users are guinea pigs to do the testing for Microsoft? Why should a user have to test things? Its 2011, it is unreasonable to ask for a phone that doesn’t require this of its users? I don’t see Android and Iphone users engaging in tests to diagnose a problem that should not have been present in the first place.

    Is this a prelude to a news story that WP7 was rushed out on beta? – After suffering Vista, nothing would surprise me.

    Quote “I’m a developer myself and am currently working on a various projects for WP7. ” (from your Blog)

    and have a phone7@Live.co.uk email address. Your blog seems dedicated to Windows Phone 7 so I think its only fair to ask in the interests of full disclosure, are you a Microsoft employee or affiliated with them?

    Kindest regards
    Tim.

    (I should add for the benefit of readers who did not see before, the last time WP7 was defended by a commenter here, it appeared to be a Microsoft employee. That article will be coming shortly.)

    1. keyboardP says:

      Hi,

      You seem to be directing questions and pointing a finger at me and I’m not sure why. My post was to highlight that if people are having issues, I have found some reasons why they may have issues. I wasn’t here trying to say the issue doesn’t exist nor that it’s okay, but seeing as your post didn’t really provide any tips for users, I thought I’d let you (and your readers) know of my findings.

      When you quoted me regarding the turning off of 3G, you ignored the context (even though you mention it on the next line). Firstly, I was suggesting a way of testing to see if it stops. I wasn’t claiming it to be a solution to the problem. Secondly, I use Wifi more than 3G, hence why I mentioned that. As I mentioned in my post, I’ve never come across the problem, so it probably makes sense for me to let people know what situation my phone is in so that the issue can be narrowed down.

      “And so it appears WP7 users are guinea pigs to do the testing for Microsoft? Why should a user have to test things? Its 2011, it is unreasonable to ask for a phone that doesn’t require this of its users? I don’t see Android and Iphone users engaging in tests to diagnose a problem that should not have been present in the first place.”

      I like to help people and figured I’d post suggestions I’d come across, so that anyone who does face this issue can have something to help them resolve it. Furthermore, if the issue is found, at least a fix can be released faster. You should realise that this isn’t happening with the majority of users and no official word has confirmed the issue in the first place.
      What boat were you in when iPhone’s had signal problems? Were you blaming Apple or saying that the issue only affects a minority? Same with the Android’s HTC Hero update deleting all data from users phones. Why should HTC Hero users be guinea pigs? Can you tell me why it took Google 6 months to fix the SMS sending issue? Surely you should be asking this question of all platforms if your supposed stance is to insinuate hardware and software companies should be releasing bug free products? Sorry, but your paragraph works both ways. Can you honestly say you haven’t heard of any iPhone or Android issues? I highly doubt that.

      “and have a phone7@Live.co.uk email address. Your blog seems dedicated to Windows Phone 7 so I think its only fair to ask in the interests of full disclosure, are you a Microsoft employee or affiliated with them?”

      I’m not a MS employee nor affiliated with them in any way. I just happen to be a fan of WP7 dev and decided to start blogging about it when it was announced at MIX. The email address obviously isn’t my day to day one, so I created a new one for the blog.

      As a developer, I like creating things using whatever tools is right. I developed for Android when I had my Hero. I develop for WP7 now that I have one. I use PHP w/ MySQL and ASP.NET w/ MSSQL (whichever is right for the job). Hope that clears matters up and look forward to your reply.

      Thanks.

      1. openbytes says:

        Quote “You seem to be directing questions and pointing a finger at me and I’m not sure why”

        Not at all. We are having a discussion. You state that you are not employed or affiliated with Microsoft, thats good enough for me. As far as I’m concerned you are defending the platform (since you have chosen to develop for it) and I merely now wonder why one would choose WP7 as a viable platform, when whatever figures MS is keeping to their chest, your larger market surely has to be android or iphone.

        The issues WP7 has and the strategy MS uses, should be no concern of yours then, since like me an my Android phone, you have no affiliation.

        I asked the question only because as a developer who appears to only blog about WP7, it seems a rather restrictive decision to make.

        Quote “When you quoted me regarding the turning off of 3G, you ignored the context (even though you mention it on the next line).”

        Im sorry if you feel that way, but since people can read what I read, it seemed to me you were expecting a new user to go through a testing phase just to diagnose a problem which they shouldn’t be having. This is 2011, its bad enough WP7 missing key features, but for users then to undergo some testing/workaround just to stop it gobbling up data, seems not only unreasonable, but further suggests that the WP7 was rushed out. No concern of yours Im sure since you have no connection with them.

        Quote “I like to help people and figured I’d post suggestions I’d come across”

        Very honourable, Im sure. Could you maybe explain then whats so great or special about WP7 that has you offering help and writing almost exclusively on your blog about it? As I see it, if anything WP7 is lacking key features which Android and iphone users have already been enjoying.

        Quote “As a developer, I like creating things using whatever tools is right. I developed for Android when I had my Hero. I develop for WP7 now that I have one. ”

        So whats the advantage? What makes you want a phone missing features which many people see an essential to get a WP7? What makes you want to develop for a platform where even MS won’t give you the real sales figures for it? Whats the draw as a developer over an established platform like Android and iphone with a massive userbase?

        These answers would certainly clear things up.

        Firstly:

        Quote “anyone who does face this issue can have something to help them resolve it”

        I’d suggest that the “fixes” were blatantly obvious to anyone that finds WP7 eating up their data limit. The point was, they shouldn’t have to experiment nor should a smartphone be expected to have them, remember its only MS late to the party, they are competing with established and loved brands.

        Now I’ll address your q’s quickly since its very late.

        Quote “What boat were you in when iPhone’s had signal problems? Were you blaming Apple or saying that the issue only affects a minority?”

        Please don’t try the “well, it happened to them so its ok to happen to us” type argument. I repeat MS is competing with established brands, the last thing a new user wants (if many exist) is to jump into a WP7 remove themselves from Android or Apple with a smartphone thats lacking features they took for granted and then to add insult to injury find it gobbles their data too.

        My stance on Iphone or any phone with an issue would be the same, but I am talking about the WP7 here and the effect on new users when MS is trying to worm its way into the smartphone market with a brand new product. I did read the issues but the difference with Microsoft is my view of its aggressive approach to dispelling these problems with a “Microsoft blames…..” statement and Microsoft telling people that they don’t need cut and paste, only to backtrack later. Look at the Kin…they seemed to pimp that to the bitter end and no mention of allegedly only 500 units sold.

        Maybe its why when given the choice and not having a MS platform stuffed onto their machine, they choose something else.

        I believe WP7 is dead in the water in the face of Android and Iphone. I was on the money with Kin, lets see what happens with WP7 and I would appreciate as a developer you explain what is so appealing about the WP7 platform (as per my q’s above)

        Regards
        Tim.

        1. keyboardP says:

          Hi,

          I appreciate the reply.

          “As far as I’m concerned you are defending the platform (since you have chosen to develop for it) and I merely now wonder why one would choose WP7 as a viable platform, when whatever figures MS is keeping to their chest, your larger market surely has to be android or iphone.”

          Android is not a viable market for me because I see the app market as a place to release free software. I agree with what the creator of Angry Birds said – “And paid content just doesn’t work on Android.” (Full interview here). That and platform fragmentation doesn’t appeal to me as a developer (unless it’s for a hobby, in which case Android’s openness allows for real creativity). There’s just no real structure to the marketplace and it’s very easy to pirate (not saying other platforms are impossible, but at least there’s some barriers to entry).

          The iPhone market is obviously the best market to currently be in. However, it’s very difficult to get noticed in such a large store and I’m not willing to invest in a mac and an iPhone atm for development. I’m choosing Wp7 because I see potential. It’s a risk, yes, but that’s my fundamental reasoning. With a company like MS investing heavily into it, I see that it can be successful. You’ll point to to Kin and, quite frankly, MS wasn’t heavily invested in it. The original Xbox wasn’t great compared to the Playstation, but with the backing of MS, the Xbox 360 is definitely a successful console. WP7 isn’t going to take off overnight, and I’d think it’s naive to think so, but in a year or so, I believe it will start to make a mark. You may point to Vista as a failure, but lets not forget that unlike previous Windows Mobile phones (which I wasn’t a fan of), WP7 runs on .NET. MS have been (and will probably be) pushing .NET for many years. Any future iterations of phones will most likely be running on the .NET platform, therefore any development skills and familiar development environments will be transferable. That facet is often underestimated.

          “Very honourable, Im sure. Could you maybe explain then whats so great or special about WP7 that has you offering help and writing almost exclusively on your blog about it? As I see it, if anything WP7 is lacking key features which Android and iphone users have already been enjoying.”

          The blog is a dedicated WP7 blog, so it won’t have information on other topics. However, I wasn’t a blogger before this and I’m not one to blog about my personal life. WP7 happened to be a topic I was interested in, and became quite familiar with, so I figured I’d write a WP7 blog the same way others write about their favourite technology. I like to help others in all sorts of scenarios. It just so happens that WP7 is my only blog so it looks like I exclusively help in that, but I help on sites like Stackoverflow and whatnot.
          You’re right, WP7 isn’t on par with current models. But, as I say, it’s a risk I’m taking and confident in.

          “So whats the advantage? What makes you want a phone missing features which many people see an essential to get a WP7? What makes you want to develop for a platform where even MS won’t give you the real sales figures for it? Whats the draw as a developer over an established platform like Android and iphone with a massive userbase?”

          Firstly, I’m experienced in .NET, so that’s a huge advantage. I didn’t like Android’s development environment. Eclipse can’t hold a candle to Visual Studio. The emulator was incredibly slow (might’ve changed now) and the general experience wasn’t brilliant. For the iPhone, as I say, I’m not willing to invest in a mac and an iPhone just for development at the moment. I guess the draw is that it’s being backed by a huge company who can’t really afford to let the smartphone market slip through their hands. I see massive parallels between the xbox entering the market against the established PS and this.

          “I’d suggest that the “fixes” obvious were blatantly obvious to anyone that finds WP7 eating up their data limit. The point was, they shouldn’t have to experiment nor should a smartphone be expected to have them, remember its only MS late to the party, they are competing with established and loved brands.”

          No point crying over spilt milk. The point isn’t that they shouldn’t have to experiment. My point was that I was explaining how to fix it to some degree now that it’s happened.
          But you’re right in that MS is winning no favours when they’re already fighting an uphill battle.

          Please don’t try the “well, it happened to them so its ok to happen to us” type argument.

          I didn’t mean it to come off that way. However, you were claiming that MS shouldn’t be expecting users to be guinea pigs and whatnot. I’m saying that it happens to all companies. That’s how software/hardware development is. Therefore, your line of it being unreasonable holds true for Android and iPhone, ergo it’s a moot point.
          The valid point in that section is that this will make it harder for MS considering that they’re already coming in late – no arguments there.

          “My stance on Iphone or any phone with an issue would be the same, but I am talking about the WP7 here and the effect on new users when MS is trying to worm its way into the smartphone market with a brand new product. I did read the issues but the difference with Microsoft is my view of its aggressive approach to dispelling these problems with a “Microsoft blames…..” statement and Microsoft telling people that they don’t need cut and paste, only to backtrack later. Look at the Kin…they seemed to pimp that to the bitter end and no mention of allegedly only 500 units sold.”

          As I mentioned above, the point is moot (regarding phone issues). MS have not made an official statement on this issue. Stories have been anecdotal, as have the solutions. If you’re not a fan of the way MS handles those problems, then you can’t be a fan of the way Google or Apple either. Google were aware of the SMS issues, but ignored it. Once it blew up, they started issuing a fix. Apple claimed there were no antennae issues. But wait, suddenly you can buy cases that fix the problem. They held an emergency press conference for a non-issue? Come on, all your points seem to be valid for all the companies. You can complain about a company’s business dealings, but you have to hold the mirror up to all the others. Complaining about specific features (or lack thereof), is fair game as that’s the main issue at hand.

          “Maybe its why when given the choice and not having a MS platform stuffed onto their machine, they choose something else.”

          Mac and Linux have been, and are, available to all. They have choice, yet they’re still choosing Windows. I run Ubuntu and Win 7, because I have a choice.

          “I believe WP7 is dead in the water in the face of Android and Iphone. I was on the money with Kin, lets see what happens with WP7”

          So many people said that about Android. I picked up an Android as soon as my contract ended. Everyone else had an iPhone and thought my phone was rubbish (without using it). Few years down the line, look where it is. If Google didn’t fragment the hell out of it and had a solid marketplace, I’d be on Android full time. They did, it’s not, so I’m not.

          I know I’m running a risk, but that’s exciting for me. Time will tell as to what’s going to happen, but it’s a great time to be a consumer🙂.

          1. openbytes says:

            Thanks for the reply.

            Quote “Android is not a viable market for me because I see the app market as a place to release free software. I agree with what the creator of Angry Birds said – “And paid content just doesn’t work on Android.””

            And thats one devs opinion, there is much money to be made in Android (I can cite) and maybe the Angry Bird app is aimed more at a user which doesn’t have ready access to as much buying power (i.e younger people). That being said, I don’t think you can argue that Angry Birds has been very sucessful with the revenue stream it has and regardless of how it makes its money, it does. Lost in the ether seems then to be an argument for developers to leave the Windows platform on the very same arguments you have cited.

            No structure to the Android Market-place? Really? Thats a matter of opinion as Ive certainly had no issues locating the best apps for my needs and indeed had no problems with the structure at the user level.

            Quote “No point crying over spilt milk. The point isn’t that they shouldn’t have to experiment”

            Well there is a point “crying” since customers who took the risk into WP7 then to have this. For every WP7 issue there is a paying customer who put faith into Microsoft. Just like the Kin, there is point crying since its the end-user who suffers a MS experiment or a rushed out product.

            Quote “As I mentioned above, the point is moot (regarding phone issues). MS have not made an official statement on this issue. Stories have been anecdotal, as have the solutions. ”

            Yes, we get alot of that. Kinect et al. In the meantime your advice would be “Jump on in and worry about these things if they happen.”????

            Quote “If you’re not a fan of the way MS handles those problems, then you can’t be a fan of the way Google or Apple either”

            I’m not a fan of any tech….to use that word would imply an undying loyalty to a product or company regardless of any issues it has. No I am not a fan.

            I suppose I am a “fan” of the ethos of FOSS, but then I also support a proprietary model too.

            Quote “Google were aware of the SMS issues, but ignored it. Once it blew up, they started issuing a fix. Apple claimed there were no antennae issues. But wait, suddenly you can buy cases that fix the problem. They held an emergency press conference for a non-issue? Come on, all your points seem to be valid for all the companies”

            But as I say, I am talking about WP7. If we apply your reasoning to all tech then nobody would be critical of anything since the argument could be cited…”Well company X did the same”

            Quote “Mac and Linux have been, and are, available to all. They have choice, yet they’re still choosing Windows. ”

            Not quite….Its OEM thats made it easy to merely lay back and accept it. How many average users do you know would want to remove Windows upon buying a new PC? They have had years of Microsoft and voices telling them the only way is the Microsoft way. Interesting though when the browser ballot came in and gave people a choice to look at how Firefox has eaten away at IE market share. Like I say on phones people do feel as if they have a choice. They are choosing Iphone or Android.
            *I would ask any reader to speak to any “non-tech” friends. Ask them if they like Microsoft products and see what the majority answer is.

            Quote ” I run Ubuntu and Win 7, because I have a choice.”

            But then as a dev you are in a position of far more knowledge than the average PC user who uses their machine as a mere utility.

            Quote “So many people said that about Android. I picked up an Android as soon as my contract ended. Everyone else had an iPhone and thought my phone was rubbish (without using it). Few years down the line, look where it is.”

            I didn’t and since we are talking about my prediction thats the matter at hand. Potential data gobbling issues aside, I don’t say WP7 is rubbish, I say its a product thats lacking which has entered the market far too late on the back of the brand Microsoft which when given a choice, people won’t buy into.

            Quote “Time will tell as to what’s going to happen, but it’s a great time to be a consumer”

            Well yes and no. Choice = competition = good for end user. But this is Microsoft we are talking about, who seems quite happy to go after Linux with its patent portfolio and cream a little from the top of the Android phones, because it seems, if Microsoft can’t make the products people want to buy, then it will take money from those that do. That is not good for the consumer.

            Kind regards
            Tim

            *Sorry about Akismet holding your comment. I don’t know why it was identified as spam as it certainly isnt.

            1. keyboardP says:

              Hi,

              “Lost in the ether seems then to be an argument for developers to leave the Windows platform on the very same arguments you have cited.”

              Not quite. See Android is open to piracy due to unrestricted side-loading. This results in the ability to download from any site, hence why so many androids have trojans and premium-number dialling apps. I’d worry more about that tbh, than unconfirmed reports of data usage, but I digress. Apple’s app store is so successful (from a developer’s perspective) because of the rigid ‘must go through marketplace’ approach. The WP7 store isn’t established yet, but is trying to find a fine line inbetween (but with more emphasis on Apple’s route).

              “No structure to the Android Market-place? Really? Thats a matter of opinion as Ive certainly had no issues locating the best apps for my needs and indeed had no problems with the structure at the user level.”

              Finding apps isn’t a problem. Monetizing it, is (see above). There are quite a few sources claiming the Android apps just can’t be monetized – and this is after it’s established. If there doesn’t seem to be any hint of changing this structure (and I highly doubt there would be, considering Google’s stance on openness), then the future doesn’t look great for using the Android market as any real source of income.

              “Well there is a point “crying” since customers who took the risk into WP7 then to have this. For every WP7 issue there is a paying customer who put faith into Microsoft. Just like the Kin, there is point crying since its the end-user who suffers a MS experiment or a rushed out product.”

              Once again, my post was in the context of why I posted the original link. You posted links to articles (which, incidentally, have a circular link thus you only have one source – Paul Thurrott’s blog) and didn’t post a solution. Someone, who has this problem, searches and comes across your page. What good is it for them just to see the problem reiterated? I would’ve thought they’d like to try and see how to fix the issue, if only temporarily. But, if we take your quote in the context you meant it, then lets use your logic. Android, as mentioned previously has trojan problems, SMS issues, privacy issues etc.. your logic dictates that paying customers have put faith in Android and this is what they get. Rushed out or not, the customer has paid. Do you not see, with the logic you’re implying, it makes no sense to single out WP7. Yes, this discussion is in regards to a WP7 issue, but if you’re going to make statements like that, then it can’t be implied (as it is) that only MS customers are being affected.

              “Yes, we get alot of that. Kinect et al. In the meantime your advice would be “Jump on in and worry about these things if they happen.”????”

              No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying make an informed choice. These issues have supposedly been reported (your post). There are possibly causes (my post). Readers can take that into account when deciding to purchase the phone. Why does it have to be one extreme or another?

              “I’m not a fan of any tech….to use that word would imply an undying loyalty to a product or company regardless of any issues it has. No I am not a fan.”

              ‘Fan’ was a wrong word to use, my bad. However, there’s no denying that you’re not very fond of MS – which is fine, of course – but heavily detracts from any discussion you’re involved in regarding the company.

              “But as I say, I am talking about WP7. If we apply your reasoning to all tech then nobody would be critical of anything since the argument could be cited…”Well company X did the same”

              Bashing MS for something that Apple and Google do is hypocritical. I’m not saying don’t be critical. I’m saying be critical of all the companies. WP7 doesn’t have copy and paste yet –> that’s a fair comment, because the other two do. MS backtracked on their copy and paste stance –> that’s a fair comment as long as you put it in the context that Google and Apple also backtracked and therefore it’s an irrelevant point in a discussion trying to highlight the advantages and disadvantages of a platform. When you write a pro/con list, you write down the differences, not the similarities, regardless of what the product in question is.

              “Not quite….Its OEM thats made it easy to merely lay back and accept it. How many average users do you know would want to remove Windows upon buying a new PC? They have had years of Microsoft and voices telling them the only way is the Microsoft way. Interesting though when the browser ballot came in and gave people a choice to look at how Firefox has eaten away at IE market share. Like I say on phones people do feel as if they have a choice. They are choosing Iphone or Android.”

              To be honest, I don’t know anyone who would want to remove Windows. Friends that don’t have Windows bought a Mac from the outset. Tech friends run Linux and Windows (dual boot or separate systems). Sorry, I don’t buy your argument of “MS have told them for years Windows is the only way”. We’re in 2011 – Apple is one of the most popular tech brands. People know what a Mac is. It’s not a well kept secret you can buy Mac. Linux, by it’s nature, is designed for the more technically inclined. Windows 7 has received rave reviews, and Vista damning ones, for a reason.
              Not sure what IE has to do with OS choice. That’s a very poor comparison IMO, because IE 8 is not a great browser compared to FF/Chrome. In fact, I’m using Chrome at the moment because it’s fast.
              Yes, they are choosing iPhone or Android. That’s because that’s all they’ve had over the last few years. Lets not forget, WP7 has only been out for a few months. It will take a couple years for it to start making its mark and for more mainstream consumers to start picking up on it.

              “*I would ask any reader to speak to any “non-tech” friends. Ask them if they like Microsoft products and see what the majority answer is.”

              Surely the question should be “if they like Windows 7 (or whatever OS they’re running)?” MS is a huge company with different products. You can’t like or dislike MS products as a whole necessarily. As mentioned earlier, I like Win7 and I don’t like IE8. Lets add to that, the fact that MS have this negative brand image they have to shake off. “It’s cool to hate MS” and a loaded question such as yours panders to that. Ask something more specific to get a better answer.

              “I didn’t and since we are talking about my prediction thats the matter at hand. Potential data gobbling issues aside, I don’t say WP7 is rubbish, I say its a product thats lacking which has entered the market far too late on the back of the brand Microsoft which when given a choice, people won’t buy into.”

              With respect, your prediction is pointless in that case. You say you predicted the failure of Kin. I say I predicted the uptake of Android. Both were correct, and we both can’t be right about WP7, so where are you heading with that point?
              I agree that the MS brand isn’t going to help it and that it has entered the market very late. But with deep integration with Xbox Live and a development environment second to none, I see potential. Whether it’s tapped or not, is a different matter – it’s early days. It’s why I say it’s a risk and not a foregone conclusion.

              “Well yes and no. Choice = competition = good for end user. But this is Microsoft we are talking about, who seems quite happy to go after Linux with its patent portfolio and cream a little from the top of the Android phones, because it seems, if Microsoft can’t make the products people want to buy, then it will take money from those that do. That is not good for the consumer.”

              This seems like an anti-MS rhetoric and implies an underlying disregard for the company, thus directly or indirectly putting heavy bias in all your responses so far. You intertwine MS and WP7 as if they’re the same thing. Lets take what you just said and put it in the context of the overall discussion. You claim MS will do whatever to be number one. I’m a developer developing for WP7 platform. MS have managed to monopolise this industry, by whatever means, and now I have a massive user base. What’s the problem from my developer persepective? Now, we know that’s not going to be case. Therefore, your point is simply a hypothetical point, because if it’s not, you’ve just admitted that MS will succeed, the consumer will have no choice, and my risk of developing for WP7 has paid off.

              Thanks

              1. openbytes says:

                Hi, I hope I answer all your points (please let me know if anything needs answering)…Im currently recording the Techbytes show whilst typing this.

                Quote “See Android is open to piracy due to unrestricted side-loading. This results in the ability to download from any site, hence why so many androids have trojans and premium-number dialling apps. ”

                So its piracy now is it? Even so, Windows doesn’t have a piracy problem? 3rd party devs don’t see their games and apps on Bittorrent trackers? Are you serious? Again your argument suggests a reason not to develop for Windows. Take a look at the latest Windows game, have a look how many times its downloaded and are you suggesting that WP7 can’t be busted open? The piracy argument you now put is mere fud (with all due respect) there are people who have done very nicely out of the Android marketplace and the userbase continues to grow.

                Quote “Finding apps isn’t a problem. Monetizing it, is (see above). There are quite a few sources claiming the Android apps just can’t be monetized – and this is after it’s established. ”

                And theres many that say you can.

                Quote “With respect, your prediction is pointless in that case. You say you predicted the failure of Kin. I say I predicted the uptake of Android. Both were correct, and we both can’t be right about WP7, ”

                Completely agree. Lets see who is right.

                Quote “This seems like an anti-MS rhetoric and implies an underlying disregard for the company, thus directly or indirectly putting heavy bias in all your responses so far. ”

                So you deny Microsoft acting like this? You deny the possible harm these actions could to for the end-user? Please.

                Quote “You claim MS will do whatever to be number one. I’m a developer developing for WP7 platform. MS have managed to monopolise this industry, by whatever means….”

                Its your gamble. I have an opinion, I don’t think that will pay off.

                Quote “You intertwine MS and WP7 as if they’re the same thing. Lets take what you just said and put it in the context of the overall discussion. You claim MS will do whatever to be number one. I’m a developer developing for WP7 platform. MS have managed to monopolise this industry, by whatever means, and now I have a massive user base. What’s the problem from my developer persepective? Now, we know that’s not going to be case. Therefore, your point is simply a hypothetical point, because if it’s not, you’ve just admitted that MS will succeed, the consumer will have no choice, and my risk of developing for WP7 has paid off. ”

                Of course MS will succeed and of course MS and WP7 are intertwined. It may not shift its own phone, but it will still make money from the Android phones its skimming off of. Of course MS will do everything it can to be number one, thats a no brainer, its what any company will try to do.

                If you need anything clarification on any of my views, just ask. As I say I am recording so I may have missed something.

                Kind regards
                Tim.

                1. keyboardP says:

                  Hi,
                  I appreciate your time and I think this discussion is going to go round in circles so it’s probably best to agree that we’ll wait and see🙂. I’ll answer your points and I’ll check back to see if you’d like anything clarified as well.

                  “So its piracy now is it? Even so, Windows doesn’t have a piracy problem? 3rd party devs don’t see their games and apps on Bittorrent trackers? Are you serious? Again your argument suggests a reason not to develop for Windows. Take a look at the latest Windows game, have a look how many times its downloaded and are you suggesting that WP7 can’t be busted open? The piracy argument you now put is mere fud (with all due respect) there are people who have done very nicely out of the Android marketplace and the userbase continues to grow.”

                  Extrapolation once again. Maybe if I quote myself from earlier, you’ll see that you missed out on a very key aspect – “[Android is] very easy to pirate (not saying other platforms are impossible, but at least there’s some barriers to entry).” That makes that entire paragraph redundant.

                  “And theres many that say you can.”

                  Agree to disagree. Could you name 3 financially successful apps on the Android market? Just one independent source (in addition the interview by the creator of Angry Birds, who I think is in a good position to provide an informed opinion). I’ll be happy to accept counter evidence, of course.

                  “So you deny Microsoft acting like this? You deny the possible harm these actions could to for the end-user? Please.”

                  Once again, it seems like the point is being avoided like the plague. Could you quote where I denied it? Or was that simply something you inferred? I didn’t deny it – I’m saying it’s irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

                  “Of course MS will succeed and of course MS and WP7 are intertwined. It may not shift its own phone, but it will still make money from the Android phones its skimming off of. Of course MS will do everything it can to be number one, thats a no brainer, its what any company will try to do.”

                  It seems like you’re tripping over your own quotes. On one hand, you were complaining about MS pulling unethical tricks to succeed. If this is the case, and if it’s something they continue to do with WP7, then they’ll be succesful and I’ll be a developer with a large userbase (rendering this entire discussion moot). On the other hand, you think WP7 will not succeed and therefore completely nullifying any point of that ‘anti-competitive’ paragraph.

                  Thanks again for your time and good luck with the recording!

                  1. openbytes says:

                    Quote “[Android is] very easy to pirate (not saying other platforms are impossible, but at least there’s some barriers to entry)”

                    But then if its a moot point or redundant one, there is no need to mention it at all. I do however think there is some merit in a piracy issue but its deluded if you think (which I don’t believe you do) that the WP7 is in someway locked down that would thwart any untoward behaviour.

                    Examples? The one that sticks in my mind of a success story was a bedroom coder who makes in access of 10k a month with:
                    http://www.androlib.com/android.screenshot.app.qwnx-jtzx.u.aspx

                    Now whilst Gamesloft (for example) is scaling back their production, I’d suggest the revenue they generate would be very desirable to me or you or indeed any upstart company. Just food for thought there and certainly in terms of potential revenue the market has to be greater than that of WP7 just by the sheer number of users. Marketing of your app is up to you and is obviously a factor in its success.

                    We can cite examples of “yes it does”, “no it doesn’t” all day, but I’d suggest comparing a WP7 platform presently to an Android one in terms of potential revenue, I’d suggest the odds are well in Androids favor. Or are you telling me everyone is flocking to WP7?

                    Quote “Once again, it seems like the point is being avoided like the plague. Could you quote where I denied it?”

                    What are you reading? I state that Microsoft creams money off the top of Android sales, then you make a response such as:

                    “This seems like an anti-MS rhetoric and implies an underlying disregard for the company,”

                    To try to fudge away the comment. You neither confirm its correct or state its false, you make a throwaway remark not answering the point that I make about Microsoft taking money away from people who make products users actually want to buy. Thats why I asked you to deny it, you made no response in relation to that.

                    Quote “It seems like you’re tripping over your own quotes. On one hand, you were complaining about MS pulling unethical tricks to succeed. If this is the case, and if it’s something they continue to do with WP7, then they’ll be succesful and I’ll be a developer with a large userbase”

                    Again, what are you reading? My view on WP7 flopping is totally separate from its patent gagression against Android phones and it doesn’t matter if WP7 is a hit or not, MS will still, imo go after Android.

                    Please read the points I make and actually check when HTC signed with MS or Samsung etc. WP7 is one thing, Microsoft tactics (regardless of the success of the phone) are another. Ive given my reasons.

                    Don’t forget its you who said “but it’s a great time to be a consumer ” to which I responded that that it wasn’t because of the creaming of monies from Android phones.

                    Want me to simplify? Well regardless of if WP7 is a hit or not, what do you think the effect of a Linux tax has on the consumer? Do you think companies will smile sweetly and swallow the cost? Of course not it will be passed onto the consumer, that is why whatever happens with WP7 your comment of “great time to be a consumer” really requires a yes and no answer.

                    I hope thats clear.

                    Kindest regards
                    Tim.

                    1. keyboardP says:

                      Hi,

                      “We can cite examples of “yes it does”, “no it doesn’t” all day, but I’d suggest comparing a WP7 platform presently to an Android one in terms of potential revenue, I’d suggest the odds are well in Androids favor. Or are you telling me everyone is flocking to WP7?”

                      Not saying that, but I think Android has had plenty of time to establish its market and have developers generate a decent amount of revenue. Therein lies the difference. One has just launched, the other has been going for years and is still not taking off to any significant heights (from a developer perspective). It also highlights the problem. There are millions of Android users, yet the market isn’t as proportionally lucrative. Why?

                      “What are you reading? I state that Microsoft creams money off the top of Android sales, then you make a response such as:”

                      I was also reading your lines about going after Linux based on patent issues. Not sure what that has to do with anything in this discussion, yet you brought it up so I replied to it.

                      “To try to fudge away the comment. You neither confirm its correct or state its false, you make a throwaway remark not answering the point that I make about Microsoft taking money away from people who make products users actually want to buy. Thats why I asked you to deny it, you made no response in relation to that.”

                      Not accepting something does not equate to denying it. I just didn’t make a comment on it because it’s got nothing to do with the discussion. But FWIW, I don’t know the intricacies of the various anti-competitive matters, so I don’t believe I’m informed enough to make a valid judgement. I don’t think it’s a surprise to anyone that MS have been in hot water regarding business practices. So can I confirm your comments? No. Can I confirm that MS have had controversial practices? Yes. It really does seem you’re trying to sway away from all the core points especially because I explained the paradoxical logic you’re bringing regarding the practices of MS. I’ll clarify:-
                      You bring in an argument that MS ‘skims from the top’ and ‘takes money from those [that produce in-demand apps]’. I reply by saying that such a rhetoric is pointless in this discussion. I then explain, if what you say is true and is the path WP7 will take, then it will be successful (according to your logic, because your complaint was that end users will not benefit from one choice – implying MS have monopolised).I say, from a developer perspective (and, therefore, the entire point of this debate), this is great news because I have a huge userbase. However, you probably don’t think this will be the case (and I’d agree). Therefore, MS probably won’t be ‘skimming of the top’ and ‘going after Linux’, thus rendering that section null.

                      “Again, what are you reading? My view on WP7 flopping is totally separate from its patent gagression against Android phones and it doesn’t matter if WP7 is a hit or not, MS will still, imo go after Android.”

                      Sorry, but you make it sound like that’s breaking news. Of course MS will go after Android. It will also try and go after the iPhone, but considering Android is currently a much easier target (and have a similar device strategy in terms of choice), it makes sense to challenge it.

                      “Please read the points I make and actually check when HTC signed with MS or Samsung etc. WP7 is one thing, Microsoft tactics (regardless of the success of the phone) are another. Ive given my reasons.”

                      Yes, my point is this. Whatever tactics MS uses is irrelevant to me as the developer. As long as WP7 succeeds, that’s what will affect me. That’s what will make the market a worthwhile investment and that’s what will encourage other developer’s to create apps for it.

                      “Want me to simplify? Well regardless of if WP7 is a hit or not, what do you think the effect of a Linux tax has on the consumer? Do you think companies will smile sweetly and swallow the cost? Of course not it will be passed onto the consumer, that is why whatever happens with WP7 your comment of “great time to be a consumer” really requires a yes and no answer.”

                      Well actually, Linux is a very (the most?) popular server software.
                      There are plenty of distros mimicking Windows UI, which cuts down the Linux tax. The question is, why would a standard consumer want to use Linux? Gamers wouldn’t use it – relative lack of compatibility. Designers wouldn’t use it – Macs are great for design work. I know FOSS is you’re thing, but I can’t help but feel you’re attacking with the view from a pro-Linux user than a mainstream consumer.

                      Also, what has this got to do with my comment about it being a good time be a consumer? I was clearly talking about the smartphone market, so why you’ve introduce Linux into that context is unclear. You do realise most consumers benefit from competition? You denying this shows a fundamental lack of understanding market demand, and I highly doubt that’s the case. So yes, another player in the game is an advantage to the consumer. Your ‘skimming off Android sales’ doesn’t make sense to a consumer. They want a good product – that’s it. They don’t care if it’s MS, Google or Apple. If the product is good, popular, whatever, they want it. If a competitor is doing something amazing, consumers will want their phone to do the same thing or they move. It’s called choice and that’s why it’s a great time to be a consumer. 3 main phones in the playing field at the moment, and just 1 in 2007. You’re telling me it’s not clear which was the better market to be in as a consumer?

                      **** EDIT BY TIM ****

                      The thread continues further down since there is only a limited amount of depth for comments….
                      Thanks

  3. The Mad Hatter says:

    The Apple IPhone 3G had the same problem, it would use 3G even if Wifi was available. The solution was to turn off 3GS and use the Edge network. The later 3GS didn’t have the problem.

    In both cases careless design is likely to blame.

    1. openbytes says:

      Hi!

      and it appears its going to be up to the unfortunate users who find this problem to beta test a solution.

      Kind regards
      Tim

  4. CrisRowlands says:

    All I can say is Ive been using a LG Optimus 7 as soon a WP7 was available in the UK & Im perfectly happy with it. Im on a contract with unlimited data, so Ive not been affected by this at all.

    This doesnt mean I dont want them to fix this, I think it would be terrible for people on lower priced contracts with data limitations, plus its eating away at battery life. Im just looking forward to my WindowsPhone lasting a bit longer when they address & fix it.

    Im wondering if Microsoft will resort to their push OTA update service to fix something like this, something they havent done yet.

    1. openbytes says:

      Hi! Thanks for the reply.

      Of course if I had a WP7 on my contract I would have been unaffected..probably(as I have an unlimited use)…however I believe my provider has a “fair use policy” which is not uncommon….its unlimited until I hit the limit (whatever that is)…..people may find that even on an unlimited plan, not paying attention to this issue may cost them.

      Just a quick question, what was the draw to the Windows phone for you?

      Kind regards
      Tim.

  5. Agent_Smith says:

    Quote “To be honest, I don’t know anyone who would want to remove Windows. Friends that don’t have Windows bought a Mac from the outset. Tech friends run Linux and Windows (dual boot or separate systems). Sorry, I don’t buy your argument of “MS have told them for years Windows is the only way”. We’re in 2011 – Apple is one of the most popular tech brands. People know what a Mac is. It’s not a well kept secret you can buy Mac. Linux, by it’s nature, is designed for the more technically inclined. Windows 7 has received rave reviews, and Vista damning ones, for a reason.”

    Well, Let’s say, If you induce children to bad habits such as smoking or drinking, with early ages of 7, do you think, when they get to their teenage years, they will find smoking, drinking and even drugs ok, and, even cool.
    This is the problem: A massive PR and advertise campaign, running for years and changing the perception of people. And, if the current windoze blows, oh, it’s ok, the next one will be better. It’s always so, the next. And so, the years go by.

    I don’t think Google invested so much on Android to do not make it an attractive platform to developers. I think it’s early to say that piracy will run rampant on Android camp. And, piracy was the reason of success of M$, so, perhaps it can be even a benefit.
    But that distorted view of the open source platforms must change. The indie game developers are jumping on the Linux wagon, and the indie humble pack is breaking records each year. Folks on Linux pay for software, because the operating system is cheaper(or even free) for them.
    But don’t give up on Linux Android development. I would suggest you to contact Wolfire Games, one of the fathers of the indie humble pack. They sold games, DRM free, so easily copyable, and even so, they were astonished by the size of the Linux market and the revenue they got.
    Their site: http://www.wolfire.com/

    Ok ??? Good Luck in your endeavors.

    1. openbytes says:

      Hi Agentsmith!

      I can see why he may think WP7 is a good choice to develop on, it could be that he’s holding out hope that Microsoft will hit big and he’ll be the first on scene. I don’t have a problem with that at all, although he seems unable to grasp that I do believe WP7 is not going to be that hit and with its current market, it would be far more lucrative to be on Android or with the iphone.

      I suppose he’s making the gamble, its his choice. He still hasn’t answered though what the draw is on the user front for WP7 and if he intends to make any money I’d suggest users of WP7 are quite important.

      Kind regards
      Tim.

      1. keyboardP says:

        Hi Tim,

        I fully understand the criticism WP7 is getting and can also fully understand why people don’t think it will be a success. I don’t think that’s the issue. You’ve brought up various reasons and I’ve tried to counter them. That’s all it is. If you said “WP7 is missing third party multitasking”, then I’d have to agree. But you brought up complaints about WP7 users being guinea pigs and when that’s your argument, you have to accept that you’re going to get a debate, not a mere acceptance on such generalisations.

        As I said, and like you mentioned here, I know it’s a risk. However, I think MS will add value to the phone to make it worthwhile for the ‘everyday’ consumer. Trying to rationalise a risk to objective subsets wouldn’t make it a risk – the outcome would be known. What’s the draw to users? At the moment, xbox live integration, cloud storage – the standard things you see in the adverts. What’s MS going to do down the line? I don’t know – but there’s potential for lots of things.

        Thanks

        1. openbytes says:

          Quote “If you said “WP7 is missing third party multitasking”, then I’d have to agree. But you brought up complaints about WP7 users being guinea pigs and when that’s your argument, you have to accept that you’re going to get a debate, not a mere acceptance on such generalisations”

          There are so many things to bring up. The data gobbling one is the latest and I could sit and rehash all the issues which I and many others have covered…everyone has already read them though and maybe its why I don’t see a buzz of excitement around WP7. Theres no genrealisation here, the WP7 could turn out not to be the fault of MS at all, its just another issue thats been raised in the infancy of WP7 life.

          Quote “Trying to rationalise a risk to objective subsets wouldn’t make it a risk – the outcome would be known.”

          Very fancy. But I think we can’t make a highly likely guess at the outcome.

          Talking of predictions, Microsoft made very bold claims about the “death” of the iphone (with that silly WP7 parade) I think its fair game to engage in predictions about the WP7 now the dust has settled on release and on the back of Kin. Certainly there are factors here which can’t be predicted accurately, but then thats why I say “I think or I believe WP7 will fail” rather than “I know”.

          Quote “What’s the draw to users? At the moment, xbox live integration, cloud storage – ”

          Thats the draw is it? What you do mean by Xbox live integration? Similar to what Sony has upcoming for Android and what exactly is this integration? Looking at a gamertag? Counting your achievements? This is a draw is it? This is what people want? Well Im staggered.

          Cloud storage? Come on. This is unique to WP7 and I wouldn’t dwell too much on that since hasn’t Kin Studio been knocked on the head? Microsoft gave away its bloggers and we’ve had a nasty Hotmail issue over the last few days….I would think the whole subject of cloud computing Microsoft should keep very quiet about for now.

          Quote “What’s MS going to do down the line? I don’t know – but there’s potential for lots of things.”

          And the promise of “it will be better next time” is something Im sure many Microsoft users will have heard before. Every platform has the potential for “lots of things” thats not a draw at all, its a comment. …”lots of things” can mean lots of things

          I have no problem with someone championing a platform but is that it? And whats the “few standard things you see in the adverts” that hardly sounds like a draw and I’d suggest if Microsoft is somehow hoping end-users will buy into one of their ads, they need only remember the Windows 7 party adverts and the awful reception they received.

    2. keyboardP says:

      Hi Agent_Smith,

      “Well, Let’s say, If you induce children to bad habits such as smoking or drinking, with early ages of 7, do you think, when they get to their teenage years, they will find smoking, drinking and even drugs ok, and, even cool.
      This is the problem: A massive PR and advertise campaign, running for years and changing the perception of people. And, if the current windoze blows, oh, it’s ok, the next one will be better. It’s always so, the next. And so, the years go by.”

      Good point. So why isn’t Linux (or your OS of choice) pushing out a massive campaign to reverse the trend over the coming decade? If that’s all it is, then that’s the solution. True, the finance is not as high, so we’ll give it two decades.

      “I don’t think Google invested so much on Android to do not make it an attractive platform to developers. I think it’s early to say that piracy will run rampant on Android camp. And, piracy was the reason of success of M$, so, perhaps it can be even a benefit.”

      There’s a difference between a multinational company product being pirated and a 99p one being pirated. They run in much different circles. You think it’s early to say piracy will run rampant? Well, I assume you’ve ignored the massive articles about this case, so instead I’ll use Tim’s example. Tim provided the example of ‘Car Locator’ being a successful app (his choice, not mine). Lets look at the creator’s blog post. I think he’s in a better position than you or I to decide how rampant piracy is. He provides a solution, but how effective it is remains to be seen (considering Google could probably implement the same thing if it was effective).

      As mentioned earlier, I run Ubuntu because it’s a great environment for me PHP web dev work.
      I love OSS. I provide code of some of my programs and I encourage the OSS mindset. I simply came to this post originally to help any other readers of this post solve the issue if they ran into it. I didn’t come to start a debate or anything like that. I wouldn’t have even come here had it not appeared in my Twitter timeline – I just so happened to click on the link and this page came up. Tim then started questioning my post and which is why this entire discussion came about.

      Hope that clarifies the situation🙂
      Thanks

  6. openbytes says:

    CONTINUATION OF MY DISCUSSION WITH KEYBOARDP
    ———————————————————————-

    Quote ” There are millions of Android users, yet the market isn’t as proportionally lucrative. Why?”

    I can’t possibly make a comment on proportions because I don’t know, however it must have some lucrative draw since new developers are drawn to it and it has a vibrant app community. Something must be working. The point was, balance that with the WP7 platform, new or not and you can’t possibly suggest it would make economic sense to go to WP7…unless of course Microsoft scores big with WP7 and like I say I don’t think it will.

    Quote “I was also reading your lines about going after Linux based on patent issues. Not sure what that has to do with anything in this discussion, yet you brought it up so I replied to it.”

    I repeat, it was in reply to your comment of great times for consumers, it was a reminder that regardless of WP7 its not that great…Microsoft is using its portfolio against Android, that cost has to be met somewhere, I’d suggest by the end-user.

    Quote “Well actually, Linux is a very (the most?) popular server software.
    There are plenty of distros mimicking Windows UI, which cuts down the Linux tax. The question is, why would a standard consumer want to use Linux? Gamers wouldn’t use it – relative lack of compatibility. Designers wouldn’t use it – Macs are great for design work. I know FOSS is you’re thing, but I can’t help but feel you’re attacking with the view from a pro-Linux user than a mainstream consumer.”

    Eh? Mimicking Windows UI which cuts down the Linux tax? What do you mean? Could you please explain that one. Want to see mimicking? Take a look at the dev history of compiz and compare that to Windows and its “eye candy”. – This is not a Windows v Linux article anyway.

    Quote “The question is, why would a standard consumer want to use Linux? Gamers wouldn’t use it – relative lack of compatibility. ”

    Games are migrating towards the consoles and I suggest the hoops in which DRM and a plethora of PC specs hampers execution of a game, thats why the console in the living room is seen as the desirable plug in and play option. As for compat? With what? Windows? Theres one package which users cry out for Photoshop and thats not even a Microsoft Product. We are already have OpenOffice et al. The question of lack of compatibility could just as easily be fired at Windows, infact you are using Linux right now, WordPress is powered by it.

    Quote ” I know FOSS is you’re thing, but I can’t help but feel you’re attacking with the view from a pro-Linux user than a mainstream consumer.”

    Firstly my “thing” is decent software. For the most part it transpires to be FOSS, although I rely on proprietary formats, skype and many other proprietary solutions. You don’t know what my “thing” is. I champion anything I have an honest held belief is decent. Its why I have many a good comment about Mac.

    Quote “Not accepting something does not equate to denying it. I just didn’t make a comment on it because it’s got nothing to do with the discussion.”

    Again, I repeat, it had everything to do with YOUR comment of great times for end users, its a consideration to keep in mind and as I say its not great times for end users if a Microsoft linux tax is going to be passed on to them. In a bizarre way it may be better if people flock to WP7, Microsoft may not feel the need to get money from Android phones.

    I could re-iterate my points again in response to your post, but I will summarize, if you feel I havent clarified anything, please let me know.

    Quote “They want a good product – that’s it. They don’t care if it’s MS, Google or Apple. ”

    Exactly my point. And you havent said what the draw/advantage/perk/benefit there is to a user to go for a WP7 phone. You have summed up exactly why I believe WP7 will flop, it doesnt have the basic features of other phone, it doesn’t have the app catalogue. Can you honestly see in an office full of iphone and Android users who swap experiences of apps and recommend software to each other merely moving away from that and saying “You know what, I want a WP7, I want to not have cut and paste, I don’t want to be able to tether, I want a smaller app catalogue and I don’t want to be able to share my experiences/recommendations with the rest of the office” – Thats one example.

    Come on, as a dev gambling on WP7, what is WP7 offering as a draw to users? Surely there must be one, what makes you think the gamble is worth taking?

    Quote “It’s called choice and that’s why it’s a great time to be a consumer. ”

    And I am repeatedly telling you that whilst yes it is great to be a consumer, the Linux tax Microsoft has signed HTC and Samsung up to (for example) is not great. Lets forget about WP7 for a minute and let me ask again, if Microsoft makes Android more “expensive” for Phone producers, who’s going to foot the bill ultimately? Thats not great for the end user at all. I hope I don’t have to explain why I brought that up (in response to a comment you made) again.

    Quote “3 main phones in the playing field at the moment, and just 1 in 2007. You’re telling me it’s not clear which was the better market to be in as a consumer?”

    3? You mean Blackberry, Apple and Android? – There has been no real sales figures yet for WP7, Mary Jo Foley remarked on it when it was reported on ZDnet and certainly no gloating at the CES. Look at Microsoft history, they do like their self praise and when they have a real hot-seller, everyone knows about it. Why is Microsoft so tight-lipped? I asked the same question of the Kin. We know how that turned out.

    In respect of more phones than 2007, what would you say to the original Winmob owners (I was one of them on a MDA Mail) what would you say to the Kin owners? Were they better off with an additional Microsoft phone on the market?

    Kind regards
    Tim.

    1. keyboardP says:

      Hi Tim,

      “I can’t possibly make a comment on proportions because I don’t know, however it must have some lucrative draw since new developers are drawn to it and it has a vibrant app community. Something must be working. The point was, balance that with the WP7 platform, new or not and you can’t possibly suggest it would make economic sense to go to WP7…unless of course Microsoft scores big with WP7 and like I say I don’t think it will.”

      Up till recently, and even now, the Android device has been the device for the ‘geek’. The real techies who love developing and hacking things apart. That’s why there are so many apps. Most of the Android uesrs are technically orientated users. At this moment in time, it doesn’t make economic sense to go for WP7, I admit. But that doesn’t mean it makes sense to go to Android either. Therefore, I’m looking further down the line and feel that WP7 has more potential in terms of revenue.

      “Eh? Mimicking Windows UI which cuts down the Linux tax? What do you mean? Could you please explain that one.

      Apologies, I misunderstood your use of ‘Linux Tax’. I’ve thought of it being the cost of getting used to a new OS, having formed habits from a previous OS. I only heard the term ‘Android tax’ regarding what you meant, but obviously ‘Linux tax’ makes more sense.

      “Games are migrating towards the consoles and I suggest the hoops in which DRM and a plethora of PC specs hampers execution of a game, thats why the console in the living room is seen as the desirable plug in and play option. As for compat? With what? Windows? Theres one package which users cry out for Photoshop and thats not even a Microsoft Product. We are already have OpenOffice et al. The question of lack of compatibility could just as easily be fired at Windows, infact you are using Linux right now, WordPress is powered by it.”

      I said Linux is a very popular server software. I don’t deny this and would be naive to believe that Linux is not a good OS . Yes, games are becoming more console orientated than PC orientated. But is a user really going to throw out purchased software and games, hoping that they’ll all be compatible with Linux? And no, Photoshop isn’t an MS product, but it works perfectly with Windows. Also, if someone is a serious designer, do you honestly believe they’d choose Linux over Mac (even if Linux had Photoshop)? You’re trying to sell Linux to me – no need, I like it. Try selling it to the man on the street.

      “Again, I repeat, it had everything to do with YOUR comment of great times for end users, its a consideration to keep in mind and as I say its not great times for end users if a Microsoft linux tax is going to be passed on to them. In a bizarre way it may be better if people flock to WP7, Microsoft may not feel the need to get money from Android phones.”

      Fine, then answer this. How much is this going to hike up prices and when are we going to see the dramatic downfall of Android users (that’s what you’re implying, right)? Surely that automatically makes Android the wrong platform to support? If this Linux Tax of doom is going to hike up end user prices, why should I get involved with Android development when users will use rival platforms? You might be right. Users will suffer and choices will decrease and your entire argument for supporting Android has gone out the window. Or….is that not going to happen, thus making your arguments for it not being a good time to be a consumer null? One or the other.You can’t say “it’s not a good time because of the Linux tax” and also say “but the Linux tax won’t hike up prices enough to drive customers away”. If the former, then you can’t complain about consumer choice. If the latter, then why support Android? Sounds like you’re putting too much emphasis on the Linux tax.

      “Exactly my point. And you havent said what the draw/advantage/perk/benefit there is to a user to go for a WP7 phone. You have summed up exactly why I believe WP7 will flop, it doesnt have the basic features of other phone, it doesn’t have the app catalogue. Can you honestly see in an office full of iphone and Android users who swap experiences of apps and recommend software to each other merely moving away from that and saying “You know what, I want a WP7, I want to not have cut and paste, I don’t want to be able to tether, I want a smaller app catalogue and I don’t want to be able to share my experiences/recommendations with the rest of the office” – Thats one example.”

      Why I like WP7. Easy to use, great integration with Facebook, nicer UI (of course, that’s IMHO), xbox live integration (I have an Xbox), one of the best phones for photographers, Zune pass, 25gb free cloud storage, free ‘find my phone’ service, further future integration between my PC, Xbox and phone, number of developers increasing dramatically (20,000+ atm), 6000+ apps in 3 months (quality over quantity, so anyone who uses number of apps as a valid metric is missing the point), not fragmented so you’re guaranteed that your phone will update (unlike Android of course, where you get shafted if the carrier decides not to update), transferable skills (I can create a game for Xbox, Windows and WP7 with pretty much the same code). I know quite a few people who’ve taken a shine to WP7 after using it. Cut and paste is coming in the next update (as mentioned earlier, everyone who has a WP7 gets the update. Key difference). You will have noticed that I’ve mentioned ‘potential’ as one of the keywords. I’m, not saying that user’s will buy this straight away, but I think they will in the future if MS don’t mess up. Tethering can be done on some devices, albeit unofficially. Most of the stuff you’ve said regarding app catalogue and sharing experiences can be said about Android when it first came out. What tune are you singing now?

      “And I am repeatedly telling you that whilst yes it is great to be a consumer, the Linux tax Microsoft has signed HTC and Samsung up to (for example) is not great. Lets forget about WP7 for a minute and let me ask again, if Microsoft makes Android more “expensive” for Phone producers, who’s going to foot the bill ultimately? Thats not great for the end user at all. I hope I don’t have to explain why I brought that up (in response to a comment you made) again.”

      I discussed this earlier. You’re trying to have your cake and eat it. On one hand it’s “oh no, the Linux Tax is going to hike the prices so much that user’s won’t want an Android and choice will decrease”. On the other hand, it’s “Android is a viable option and there are many users, you should develop for it”. Which one is it?

      “3? You mean Blackberry, Apple and Android? – There has been no real sales figures yet for WP7, Mary Jo Foley remarked on it when it was reported on ZDnet and certainly no gloating at the CES. Look at Microsoft history, they do like their self praise and when they have a real hot-seller, everyone knows about it. Why is Microsoft so tight-lipped? I asked the same question of the Kin. We know how that turned out.”

      I knew when I typed that ‘3’, this would come up. Seeing as WP7 is the main topic, it made little sense to leave it out. Considering the rest of the debate has included iPhone and Android, it made little sense to introduce Blackberry, Nokias and whatever else.

      “In respect of more phones than 2007, what would you say to the original Winmob owners (I was one of them on a MDA Mail) what would you say to the Kin owners? Were they better off with an additional Microsoft phone on the market?”

      It’s called choice (as I mentioned earlier). You walk into a shop and there are 10 devices. Some are great and some are rubbish. The user can CHOOSE which one they have. The KIN was rubbish, and did MS no favours. But it was up to the user to buy the phone.

      Thanks

      1. openbytes says:

        Firstly to both AgentSmith and Keyboardp, sorry your posts were held in moderation….Akismet is being a little funny and needs refining.

        Keyboardp:

        We seem to be rehashing our same viewpoints so let me just pick out a few key points to address:

        Quote “Most of the Android uesrs are technically orientated users. ”

        Really?

        At the beginning of December Android activations were 300,000 daily. Thats a heck of alot of technically orientated users. Of course your comment is wholly wrong in my view and I think anyone reading this will know a plethora of people with Android phones both non-tech and tech alike.

        Quote “Fine, then answer this. How much is this going to hike up prices and when are we going to see the dramatic downfall of Android users”

        We won’t ever know for sure what impact on price the Linux tax has and I never said it would see a downfall of Android users, what I said (in challenge to your “great times for consumers” comments) was that this cost being passed on to the consumer was not a great thing and certainly not a great time to be a consumer. People will still buy Android phones, they love them, people will still buy Iphones they love those too. Its simply not fair to the end user in respect of the Linux tax.

        Lets consider your pro’s for WP7:

        “Easy to use” —- as it is on Android and Iphone

        “great integration with Facebook” —Come on. and Android Iphone and Blackberry dont?

        “xbox live integration” — You can have that one, but what integration exactly and do you really think that is a game changer? Really?

        ” Zune pass” — Seriously? Thats a perk? and Im sure Iphone customers for example will be rushing to the platform for that.

        I could go on, but your list is not ground-breaking, its not game changing and it still begs the question, what is there for Microsoft to draw happy Apple and Android users away from their platform?

        Quote “I knew when I typed that ’3′, this would come up. Seeing as WP7 is the main topic, it made little sense to leave it out. ”

        Then you should have put 4. I don’t consider WP7 a comparison yet to even Blackberry’s market share (since MS has not released real sales figures) So really MS has no place in a “big name three” list at all – at least not until you can show me the great (implied) sales are fact.

        Now your last comment, I really have to object to and unless you have made a typo or its a misunderstanding on my part:

        Quote “The KIN was rubbish, and did MS no favours. But it was up to the user to buy the phone.”

        So everything Microsoft said about it was lies? All the PR, the adverts, the MVP’s, Microsoft Faithful they were all liars? I certainly took their words as words from those with an interest and was correct in my prediction of the death of the Kin. Let me ask you this? Why should anyone have any faith in what Microsoft says this time around? After all they promoted the Kin, made great statements and claims and yet you (and the poor souls who bought into Microsoft’s words) now see it as “rubbish”?

        But the real icing on the cake was the last part:

        Quote “But it was up to the user to buy the phone.”

        So it was the users fault then? “Tough luck, you’ve bought a dud, better luck next time”????
        Users fault? – what for believing what they were told about the Kin? or merely being silly enough to buy into the hype? and hype from Microsoft is maybe a damn good reason as to why I think people will stay away from WP7.

        Regards
        Tim

        1. keyboardP says:

          “Really?
          At the beginning of December Android activations were 300,000 daily. Thats a heck of alot of technically orientated users. Of course your comment is wholly wrong in my view and I think anyone reading this will know a plethora of people with Android phones both non-tech and tech alike.”

          You’re right, I should’ve said ‘were’. You were asking why there are so many apps for the platform and I was explaining that it’s because Android was the phone of choice for more technical orientated people. That’s why it took a couple of years for it to become more mainstream. Developers loved to hack open the OS and mess around with it, which is why so many techies bought it. That’s why there are so many apps (and why most are free – a lot of developers do it for the fun, not the money).

          “We won’t ever know for sure what impact on price the Linux tax has and I never said it would see a downfall of Android users, what I said (in challenge to your “great times for consumers” comments) was that this cost being passed on to the consumer was not a great thing and certainly not a great time to be a consumer. People will still buy Android phones, they love them, people will still buy Iphones they love those too. Its simply not fair to the end user in respect of the Linux tax.”

          We won’t ever know for sure what impact it has? Sounds pretty negligible to me. No, it’s not great for the consumers if the price is visibly increased, but if this Linux Tax is hardly going to make a dent, I stick with my statement that this market is great for the consumer, especially compared to a market where there was one main dominant smartphone. Not asking for a hard figure (that would be pretty difficult to tell), but if you can’t predict, or even notice, the impact, what’s the problem?

          Before I continue, have you ever used a WP7? Your comments really reflect those of someone who has read reviews and nothing more.

          “Easy to use” —- as it is on Android and Iphone

          Arguable. I’ve heard mix tales of Android’s learning curve, ranging from a few days to weeks. Considering its UI is similarly icon based to the iPhone, you’d expect the transition to be smoother than a few days.

          “great integration with Facebook” —Come on. and Android Iphone and Blackberry dont?

          Well no, not compared to WP7. Statements like this is why I suspect you have never used a WP7 and why that detracts away further from your points. one article and another. Can you show me such integration with your iPhone, Android and Blackberry examples you cited?

          ““xbox live integration” — You can have that one, but what integration exactly and do you really think that is a game changer? Really?”

          25 million Live users probably appreciate being able to transfer achievements. Considering Xbox Live was a game changer in the online arena, I think it’s quite a hand to have.

          “” Zune pass” — Seriously? Thats a perk? and Im sure Iphone customers for example will be rushing to the platform for that.”

          Once again, I’m guessing you have a lack of knowledge regarding what Zune pass is. Matter of fact, it’s such a perk that Apple is considering changing it’s iTunes structure to be more like the Zune pass’ subscription based structure. How is Android’s Amazon store comparing?

          “I could go on, but your list is not ground-breaking, its not game changing and it still begs the question, what is there for Microsoft to draw happy Apple and Android users away from their platform?”

          Well, considering your points seem to reflect very little, if any, exposure to WP7 I’d saying going on would be a futile move. You conveniently stopped at key points.
          1) By being able to develop for three platforms simultaneously, developers can provide games and apps that are integrated across the xbox, pc and phone. If correctly exploited, this will be a draw to users because they can make most of their apps and games.
          2) You talked about app catalogue and ‘friend recommendations’ in the office. I mentioned Android was in the same boat, but I notice a distinct lack of reply on that front. So, a reply to that would be nice as I may have missed something that Android had on launch which WP7 doesn’t regarding friend’s recommendations and apps and whatnot.

          “Then you should have put 4. I don’t consider WP7 a comparison yet to even Blackberry’s market share (since MS has not released real sales figures) So really MS has no place in a “big name three” list at all – at least not until you can show me the great (implied) sales are fact.”

          You seem quite fixated with the present climate, when I’m clearly talking further down the line. A couple of examples of how Blackberry fares amongst Mashable readers Hmm, overtaken by WP7 in three months when BB has been around for quite a while. What about developers? Well, seems to me developers are flocking more to WP7 than BB Of course, feel free to provide evidence to the contrary and I’d be happy to discuss that.

          “So everything Microsoft said about it was lies? All the PR, the adverts, the MVP’s, Microsoft Faithful they were all liars? I certainly took their words as words from those with an interest and was correct in my prediction of the death of the Kin. Let me ask you this? Why should anyone have any faith in what Microsoft says this time around? After all they promoted the Kin, made great statements and claims…”

          Considering MS is a business, I’d be surprised if they’d recommend people not to buy the phone. I’m guessing they didn’t realise it would fail otherwise they wouldn’t have released the product. Similar to Google Nexus one, Google Wave, Google Buzz, Palm Pre etc… Why should you ever trust Google to bring out another decent web app? Don’t say it’s free, because privacy isn’t. Not sure how long you’ve been in the tech arena, but if we followed your attitude of not trusting a company that’s failed, then we wouldn’t have successful products like Win7 and the various Android devices.

          “… and yet you (and the poor souls who bought into Microsoft’s words) now see it as “rubbish”?”

          I find it hard to believe that you can’t get your head around the fact that I thought the Kin was rubbish. Not once did I EVER claim it was good. I don’t speak for MS and I don’t speak for anyone else, so why should it matter how I see it? It seems that, to you, anyone who supports an MS product has to be a die hard MS fan loving everything they do. Anyone with that mindset implies that they too hold that view and so you must be supporting Google to the ends of the Earth.

          “So it was the users fault then? “Tough luck, you’ve bought a dud, better luck next time”????
          Users fault? – what for believing what they were told about the Kin? or merely being silly enough to buy into the hype? and hype from Microsoft is maybe a damn good reason as to why I think people will stay away from WP7.”

          With respect, your logic is quite unbelievable. Were users forced into buying the Kin? (Like you suspect is the case with the Windows OS)? No, they could choose iPhone, Android, whatever. If you believe that every product ever advertised is the best product ever, then you must be a very naive man. I like to read reviews of products before I buy them. I can’t speak for anyone else, so you should ask them why they bought it, not me. Maybe they’ve had their fingers burnt and won’t buy WP7, it’s their choice.
          Why don’t Google advertise their fragmentation issues? Why don’t they say – “listen, you can buy this phone and we’ll show you future updates. You can’t download them, but you see others use it?”
          Was it the Google’s fault for not advertising that some devices had shoddy SMS issues?
          Was it the Google’s fault that many users fell victim to trojans that racked up phone bills?
          Was it the Google’s fault for users installing an app that claimed to do one thing, yet stole their text messages and emailed them to a third party?
          I guess you are blaming Google, if that’s your attitude to the Kin? After all, when Google advertised, they never showed any of these in their adverts. 500 or so bought the kin. Many more fell victim to rogue apps.
          Some products fail and some succeed. That’s life.

          I’ve mentioned the draws of WP7 and your consistent comparison to the Kin highlights a very high lack of knowledge on how MS actually works. If you think it runs as one company and shares the same resources, you couldn’t be more wrong. I’ve discussed your Kin comparison to highlight the other points, but comparing the Kin and WP7 is not a strong argument at all. For one, they (were) run by different sub groups.

          Thanks

          1. openbytes says:

            Quote “That’s why there are so many apps (and why most are free – a lot of developers do it for the fun, not the money).”

            And maybe we can finally agree on something. If you state that Android is not as lucrative as the Iphone for developers AND devs on the Android are “doing it for free” then its obviously a hit with the populas and maybe the biggest warning signal to a dev hoping to make money elsewhere. If the mainstream are jumping on Android then being on a platform that doesn’t have the userbase would not be any more lucrative. Theres no point in devs without users to buy/use their software and theres no users without software created by the devs. Since Android does have the plethora of apps, what would make a user want to come over to what you suggest may be a future lucrative phone, if users have to pay?

            The FOSS ethos has already shown its popularity, what if the reason behind Android success is partially due to a more open platform and the free titles? Does that bode well for the WP7 or indeed any developer who wants to make money. Already there are so many FOSS solutions for proprietary ones, of course there are exceptions, titles like Photoshop compared to Gimp (which I just can’t get on with)

            Quote “We won’t ever know for sure what impact it has? Sounds pretty negligible to me. ”

            I suggest you read the coverage on it by the people who do know. I am not a patent lawyer, I don’t think you are either. I think on the basis of a tax on a phone that carries linux, its a given it would effect the end-user negatively in one way or another.
            We can leave that their though as these “deals” were signed behind closed doors and I don’t think even the mainstream tech journalists know the answer.

            In answer to your question:

            Quote “Your comments really reflect those of someone who has read reviews ”

            Yes, I have a friend who works for a phone shop who I pick up on the way home (if ive driven into work) Ive had a look. Infact your comment is inaccurate since there has been glowing praise by some of the phone.
            As I said before, I say again, Im not saying the phone is rubbish, I say its lacking key features. You dont even need to use the thing to know that, since Microsoft has acknowledged it. Its the missing features, its the too little too late that I have issue with. Also the marketing tactics of the product, but thats something off topic for this conversation.

            Quote “Considering MS is a business, I’d be surprised if they’d recommend people not to buy the phone. ”

            Very true, so if we can put that as a reason for the Kin, why can’t we be as sceptical about WP7? What makes Microsoft straight down the line this time? Why should we believe all the great claims MS makes now when we have established by way of the Kin that its not surprising MS praised its only product?

            Quote “I guess you are blaming Google”

            Of course I would. I find myself repeating myself when I say I champion decent hardware/software solutions and am equally critical of any issues that may arise conversely.

            Look at my Sony Playstation phone article, if I was merely rubbishing WP7, surely I would be full of praise for the phone (afterall my family has chosen PS3 over 360 in the console wars)….

            WP7 stands out differently in our discussion, it is in its infancy when others have moved on. Who knows exactly whats going on with the data gobbling issue, but after the Kin and previous mobile experiences it should not be the users brave enough to jump in who have to discover them. Everything else we have discussed is mere opinion. You see WP7 as a long term success story, I do not. We will see who is right soon enough.

            Quote “Many more fell victim to rogue apps.”

            Please don’t use the malware issue. Firstly because Windows exploits are numerous. Just like on Windows you don’t blindly install anything on it for the exact same reason.

            Quote “Some products fail and some succeed. That’s life.”

            Exactly, so whats the big deal then about me thinking WP7 will fail and you thinking it won’t? At the end of the day it will have no effect on me whatever happens.

            I made two predictions for 2011

            1. WP7 would fail to bag the market in the face of an Android and Iphone world.
            2. Ballmer would be gone by July.

            Lets see if I’m right.

            I’ll end on this:

            Quote “but comparing the Kin and WP7 is not a strong argument at all. For one, they (were) run by different sub groups.”

            So you don’t think in the eyes of the end-user Kin could have contributed to lost confidence in MS’s ability to crack this market? Do you think the average user even knows that they were run by different sub-groups or even cares? How about the average user will merely see the word “Microsoft” and stop right there?

            Thats probably one area where Apple have the real advantage, rightly or wrongly its managed to market a fashionable product…you tell me, for the average person walking down the street, what brand would they want association with Apple or Microsoft? I think the answer is obvious and whilst that in my view is a rather poor state of affairs when a tech brand becomes fashionable, thats part of the brand identity that I see Apple have built around all its products. That and Android is what WP7 is competing with and with the name Microsoft (and the Kin history) I don’t think they will succeed.

            I would though echo Agentsmith’s comments of wishing you luck in your future projects.

            Regards
            Tim.

            1. keyboardP says:

              Hi Tim,

              I think you’re right and should bring this discussion to a close. I too will end on this (but will check back in case something’s been added).

              “Since Android does have the plethora of apps, what would make a user want to come over to what you suggest may be a future lucrative phone, if users have to pay?”

              I guess the reverse would be, “why would I develop for a platform which users predominately expect apps to be free, when running a business?” (I wouldn’t mind doing it as a hobby. As I say, openness = creativity). I’m hoping the MS will put some more emphasis on USPs (Live etc..) which will attract users.

              “I suggest you read the coverage on it by the people who do know. I am not a patent lawyer, I don’t think you are either. I think on the basis of a tax on a phone that carries linux, its a given it would effect the end-user negatively in one way or another.
              We can leave that their though as these “deals” were signed behind closed doors and I don’t think even the mainstream tech journalists know the answer.”

              That’s a very fair point. I would add, however, that it shouldn’t have been introduced in the first place as a topic of interest when no one’s sure what the upshot would be.

              “Yes, I have a friend who works for a phone shop who I pick up on the way home (if ive driven into work) Ive had a look. Infact your comment is inaccurate since there has been glowing praise by some of the phone.
              As I said before, I say again, Im not saying the phone is rubbish, I say its lacking key features. You dont even need to use the thing to know that, since Microsoft has acknowledged it. Its the missing features, its the too little too late that I have issue with. Also the marketing tactics of the product, but thats something off topic for this conversation.”

              I don’t deny that it’s lacking key features and I certainly hope MS are not sitting on their laurels as I’d jump ship if that was the case. But you were asking for certain draws and I was giving the current ones and potential ones. It’s certainly not going to be an overnight success, but *if* MS play their cards right, they might have something.

              “Very true, so if we can put that as a reason for the Kin, why can’t we be as sceptical about WP7? What makes Microsoft straight down the line this time? Why should we believe all the great claims MS makes now when we have established by way of the Kin that its not surprising MS praised its only product?”

              I’ve given my reasons for why I feel MS will do better with WP7. From the get go, I knew the Kin would fail. Lack of apps and expensive price plan are just a couple of the problems. Bring skeptical is absolutely fine, but I think it’s important to get a balanced picture. I’ve used an Android and love developing for it, but I don’t think the marketplace is good enough (yet?) to make money from. That’s not say I’ll never do it, but at this moment I’m skeptical about the opportunities the Android app market has. Might be wrong, and hope I am, as that just means more markets for me to be involved in.

              “You see WP7 as a long term success story, I do not. We will see who is right soon enough.”

              Agreed.

              “So you don’t think in the eyes of the end-user Kin could have contributed to lost confidence in MS’s ability to crack this market? Do you think the average user even knows that they were run by different sub-groups or even cares? How about the average user will merely see the word “Microsoft” and stop right there?”

              Not at all, but you kept comparing Kin to WP7 as if they points were transferable. My point was that you cannot do a one to one comparison and say whatever happened to the Kin will happen to WP7. The product groups are different and whilst a consumer may not know the difference, I think it’s important to highlight it in a discussion about the the success of a platform.

              “Thats probably one area where Apple have the real advantage, rightly or wrongly its managed to market a fashionable product…you tell me, for the average person walking down the street, what brand would they want association with Apple or Microsoft? I think the answer is obvious and whilst that in my view is a rather poor state of affairs when a tech brand becomes fashionable, thats part of the brand identity that I see Apple have built around all its products. That and Android is what WP7 is competing with and with the name Microsoft (and the Kin history) I don’t think they will succeed.”

              No question about Apple’s image. Their PR and marketing team is second to none. I also don’t doubt that MS has a tarnished image to the general consumer, but with the resources available, I can see things turning around in a couple years time.

              “I would though echo Agentsmith’s comments of wishing you luck in your future projects.”

              Thank you, and I too wish you luck with yours. It’s been nice to have a discussion on the internet where it hasn’t boiled down to name-calling and insults – quite a rare sight😀

              1. openbytes says:

                Thanks for the comments and the discussion, I hope you feel you got all of your points out, but more importantly feel that you have had your view properly represented by your comments. Ultimately its not you or I that decide the future, but the buying public that will dictate it and one of us will prove to be right (and I sincerely wish we both could be), its easy for me to forget that whilst these issues/topics are merely talking points and predictions on my part (since I have no involvement in the IT world), on the end of that are people like yourself, devs, who invest time and money working on a platform and want to make a living.

                And to end on an off-topic remark….Ubuntu? Great choice, whilst is not on my main rig, its a great choice and has spawned a number of excellent distros that are derived from it. If ever you need a lightwieght cloud hybrid distro derived from Ubuntu, I cannot recommend Peppermint ICE highly enough!

                Kindest regards
                Tim.

  7. Agent_Smith says:

    Dear Mr. keyboardP

    Don´t get me wrong. I was not arguing with you. I see you are trying to make a living out of IT, and, it´s just as the rest of us do. My work is related to IT, but not cellphone apps development.
    I guess just Tim doesn´t work with IT, but the majority of the rest of us do.
    I am really not aware of the situation of the app market for Android, since it´s not my area of work, but I just hear to say good things. Perhaps in a PR and advertise level, things are going Ok, but not so much underneath.
    I´ve read that post you pointed to me, and, even if the author seems disheartened, he says there´s a solution with Android Licenser, and, if Google lets initiatives like that live, I believe the app market for Android could be attractive.
    Piracy is very bad. But, for corporations, it´s good. I shifted to Linux some years (2003) ago because I could not afford to pay for all that software, and, really, I felt bad pirating software.
    Well, actually it was a good move, since I work with IT, and then, what a better way to learn and to train oneself, if not by 24/7 exposure ? And so, I did.

    Again, it´s not a fight nor a heated discussion we are having(at least, it was not my intention at all), but, I see Linux thriving in many aspects that, some years ago, it was unthinkable.
    Even what I told you about the indie game programmers, who sold their games DRM free, of course, they agree even so, there´s piracy. But piracy is something cultural, coupled with high prices and a bad attitude from the vendors.
    I firmly believe things are changing, and will change even more. People is starting to get a new culture, not the induced addiction to piracy, as I wrote in the children´s example(actually, folks were indoctrinated that copying was good, but sharing was not).
    Now, folks realize that sharing is good too. And there´s respect for other people´s work. It´s not as how it should be, just yet, but things are changing.

    And, of course, we in the open source side of the force, we need also Developers, Developers, Developers. So, I told you to do not overlook Android´s booth.

    Once again, excuse me if I sounded hostile towards you. It was never my intention, and, I see you like an ordinary guy like me, who´s just trying to earn a living, working with computers.

    Again, I wish you all the best in you endeavors and luck in your jobs.

    Best regards

    1. keyboardP says:

      Hi Agent_Smith,

      There’s no need to apologise. The internet tends to remove any tone from the comments and I certainly didn’t mean my post to come off aggressive either🙂. All of the posts, I’d like think, are discussions and nothing more. As I say, I like OSS. I think the entire mindset of sharing code increases creativity and I try and help out wherever I can.

      I’m not dismissing Android completely (and I love the creativity it allows due to its openness), but I can only make one choice at the moment. Focus on Android development or WP7. I just see WP7 with more revenue potential. If Google turn around, fix the fragmentation and app market, I’d be more than happy to go back to develop for it. I think outright dismissal for a developer is not a good tactic, but I’ve had to make a choice between the two platforms and feel WP7 might be more lucrative for revenue.

      Of course, time will tell for sure🙂

      Thanks

  8. Don Burnett says:

    This is just not true, please keep spreading the anti-microsoft misinformation.. First of all I am a Windows Phone developer and very aware of data going in and out of the phone.. Who in their RIGHT mind would own and use a SMART PHONE from any brand with a limited data plan. Did you just want to RANT about Microsoft ? Seems like you did…

    By the way there are over 4000 apps on the Windows Phone 7 marketplace right now..

    Why spread this misinformation ?

    No one buys a smart phone with a limited data plan, that’s just dumb and the store usually won’t let you… If you buy any smart phone you should buy an unlimited data plan. It’s just common sense.

    The normal charge with an unlimited data plan for this phone (and just like the iphone and android) it’s highly suggested is around $120 a month for unlimited which is what I have and use.. I have close to 50 apps on my phone right now and I have none of the problems that this article alludes to. You are just raking anti-microsoft sentiment. No one in their right mind would by a smartphone and then not get an unlimited dataplan..

    Also, the phone is definitely data active, and provides me with more information than I could ever quickly access on android or iphone because I am not constantly going in and out of apps to reach things like facebook. No one at the AT&T and T-Mobile even suggests one of these devices out of the gate without the unlimited plan.

    I saw this same stupid crappy comments when the iphone came out several years ago, for people who did not want to buy a data plan who never used a smart phone (can we say network enabled computer). You’d get the same overages if you had an Android or Apple iPhone.. In fact Microsoft’s async communications design actually cuts down on data use..

    This entire blog entry just is more anti-microsoft sentiment.. If you buy a smart phone, whether it be Android, or iPhone expect to buy an unlimited data plan. That’s just the reality of it.. It’s very bad advice to do otherwise.. Apple and Google/Android phone users have made these same complaints before.. It really makes me think you are a smartphone newbie..

    1. openbytes says:

      Oh really? Not true eh, so mainstream sites are telling lies? Paul Thurrott is telling lies? And nobody has a limited data plan?

      I’m going to love responding to the rest of your points but it will have to wait a while since I’m on my way home.

      Looking forward to responding shortly.

      1. openbytes says:

        Right, Ive returned..

        Quote “This is just not true, please keep spreading the anti-microsoft misinformation.. ”

        Firstly, I wonder why you say this when mainstream sites are reporting it too, Ive merely passed on that information? Try a Google search.

        Secondly where do I state it as fact? I wont ask you to re-read what you have already missed so I will make it simpler:

        I said “and whilst Microsoft took one of its opportunities at CES to promote a new mouse its “innovated, all is not apparently well on the WP7. PCWorld reports”

        Now notice the use of “apparently”? Lets move on how about where I say “I’d suggest to Microsoft that if this allegation is true….”

        Now correct me if Im wrong but I no way state it as fact, I link what others have written, give a few of my own opinions and then make it clear that we don’t know at this moment in time…Funnily enough ITPro wrote an article 3 hours ago (at time of writing this) which says:

        Quote “Microsoft has said it is going to investigate a potential issue with Windows Phone 7 devices after users complained their data was being used up without them knowing.”

        You can read that article here: http://www.itpro.co.uk/629941/microsoft-investigates-potential-windows-phone-7-glitch

        So you maybe want to add them to your list of people to accuse…theres plenty more.

        Quote “No one buys a smart phone with a limited data plan”

        Lol..well the user who Paul Therrott responded to does and I’d suggest many more do too. I’m not sure about the US, but the limited data plan is quite common in experience. Of course your understanding of “unlimited” certainly in respect of the UK seems somewhat lacking, but I’ll explain more in a minute.

        Quote “I saw this same stupid crappy comments ”

        Please, don’t be so silly. Is that just my view you find crappy or the view of anyone who dares to talk about WP7 and give opinion on it that doesn’t fit with your views?

        For the record (if you care to check back) my first “smart phone” was the MDA Mail which I had two of, I blogged about it historically in 2008, its all on this site, just check.

        Quote “This entire blog entry just is more anti-microsoft sentiment.”

        Yes, because to post anything other than blind praise is “anti-microsoft” is that right?

        I wonder, where were you when people voiced their opinions on the Kin? I wonder did you claim mis-information with the Hotmail issue at the beginning of this year? Infact when established journalists are responding directly to complaints in a public forum, I’d suggest its anything but mis-information and infact I have been rather measured with my use of the words “alleged” and even having a” ?” on the title of the post.

        Quote ” It really makes me think you are a smartphone newbie..”

        Funny that, I was thinking the same of you. Now I will help you a little with your understanding of the term “unlimited”. Certainly in the UK unlimited doesn’t mean as much as you want, there is a pesky blighter called “fair use policy” which has a limit on how unlimited is. If you breach that threshold you are subject to sanctions and possibly fines depending on who your carrier is.

        My carrier has a fair use policy (T-Mobile) and whilst they were not keen to tell me what that limit was (and I have unlimited data) this issue of data gobbling (if true) could effect me. Let me explain:

        I am a heavy internet user on my HTC, not just surfing daily and downloading podcasts, but it also acts as a portable wifi spot for my office and I’ll even use it for online gaming or tethering to a laptop without wifi. If I had a Windows 7 phone and IF the phone was gobbling data (50mb a day according to some reports) then its entirely possible that I could hit the “fair usage” and find myself subject to sanctions since the data usage allegedly for a phone that was not being used would be around 1.5gig (monthly) ontop of whatever I use.

        Maybe when you come back you can try to be a little less hasty in your comments. I hope you now understand why this issue if found correct could pose a problem to anyone, regardless of the contract they have entered into.

        Im sure there is more you want to say, you are always welcome to say it here. If you want a list of all the sites that have reported this “mis-information” so you can individually put your allegation to them, let me know, I’ll try to help.

        NOTE TO ALL
        ————
        AKISMET seems to be a little unbalanced at the moment, throwing some comments to moderation and then posting others (affecting all users) Agentsmith and Keyboardp’s comments were the latest ones to be held. I’m looking into this and in the meantime please let me know via twitter or identi.ca if your comment is held as I sometimes don’t notice on my dashboard.

        1. openbytes says:

          And I’ll add this little thought for Don Burnett, since he hasn’t returned.

          Let me quote what Don Burnett “smartphone expert” said:

          Quote “No one buys a smart phone with a limited data plan, that’s just dumb and the store usually won’t let you… If you buy any smart phone you should buy an unlimited data plan. It’s just common sense.”

          Now even forgetting how he needed educating on “fair use” in regards to unlimited. Here is another piece of information for his “wont let you” comment RE: capped data:

          This quote comes from the BBC:

          Quote “The launch of Apple’s iPhone 4 also marks the end of unlimited smartphone data plans from major UK mobile phone companies.”
          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10401949

          And it may interest him to know that new T-Mobile customers as of an announcement of a few days ago states that they are capped at 500mb…if the allegations of the WP7 are correct and its gobbling 50mb a day, thats 10 days it will last even if its doing nothing.

          We will be covering this further both here and on TechBytes show since there are many implications.

          I hope everyone enjoyed the thread and if anyone wants to come on TechBytes to defend WP7 we would love to have you on. Get in touch via email.

          Kindest regards
          Tim.

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