World of Gregg – What solar system is that in? – File Sharing..AGAIN!

Indiana Greggs world?  Why can't the debate be reasoned?  Why after a year since Ms Gregg came to notice with her TPB emails do we see another blog entry which I believe says the same things it did over a year ago?
Indiana Greggs world? Why can't the debate be reasoned? Why after a year since Ms Gregg came to notice with her TPB emails do we see another blog entry which I believe says the same things it did over a year ago?

I had hoped I would have no need to do yet another article on file sharing.  I have to repeat (for fear of the email flaming Ive had in the past) that I do not believe file-sharing is right.  That being said, the culture of file-sharing and material for free has a connection to the FOSS world which I will explain further.

Firstly lets have a look for a minute at Ms Indiana Gregg.  Who is she?  Well until she popped up on my tech radar sometime last year I didn’t have a clue, maybe proof that at least the topic of file-sharing has been good for her potential fan base?  This would have been the case had it not been for some issues which I feel were dealt with very badly, some arguments that were not addressed in a sensible way and some points which had not been grasped at all by her (IMO)

I will be making a link on Ms Greggs comments section in the hope that she will visit here and respond.  Ms Gregg, if you are reading this you will see that in respect file sharing, I agree its harmful to the company/person concerned (Ive even posted that view on Torrentfreak in the past and received a little abuse) I agree that a solution needs to be found that benefits everyone, the end user and the company/person who is the creative talent behind the product.  I do not however agree with the way you tackle the subject, your reasoning or your apparent lack of understanding about the mindset of todays technology user.

FILE SHARING / FOSS – A CONNECTION?

This site advocates FOSS and material published under the GPL.  In my opinion its a system which cannot be faulted and we’ve seen great results because of it.  The emulation scene, alternatives to IE and Windows, alternatives to Microsoft Office, the list goes on.  I think the increase in popularity of FOSS (both use and participation) is a result of users believing that they should no longer be paying for material.  I believe FOSS projects which create revenue from advertising etc are proving that not only is it possible to get a return, but you also get happy end users.  Its great for everyone.

You only need to look at Twitter, Facebook, Googlemail etc and ask would these products be popular if people had to pay for them?  I would doubt Twitter would have the user base it does under a paid subscription and maybe if it did then identi.ca would simply get its users.  Its a culture such as this where the popular tools/social networking are free that has got people used to not expecting to pay for products and services.

I think file-sharers think in very much the same way.  They have no intention of buying the product so they see nothing wrong in downloading it.  They can’t understand how massive companies can complain about loss of revenue when they make so much money.  These two points are weak in themselves however we can argue about them all day and it won’t change a thing.  Something which Ms Gregg and Ms Allen seem to not understand.  I would also draw your attention to the numerous artists who have made their views clear about piracy and NOT received adverse comments.  Does that say anything to you about the way its been approached by Ms Gregg?

THE INTERNET POLICE – LAW AND MS GREGG

I believe a year ago Ms Gregg was making comments about “the internet police” and making all sorts of predictions about legislation then.  Of course nothing has happened for the masses and the file-sharing user base has grown massively from the publicity celebrities who challenge have brought it. (IMO)

One of the reasons I have issue with Ms Gregg and similar making comments in respect of “what will happen” or the technology itself is that they have IMO a financial interest and unless I’m mistake no background of coding any of these technologies.  Ms Gregg is apparently (among other things) a musician and if you keep with me for a short while you will see that just like Ms Allen there are further things that need to be taken into consideration when listening to her.  Of course an artist (any artist) or indeed member of public can stand up and say piracy is wrong, thats fine but I think anyone (even file-sharers) if they consider the action would agree that its at least “not right” and the copyright laws are in place (rightly or wrongly) Ive said before, law is not something which we can “cherry pick” the bits we like and ignore the bits we dont.  That being said, its seems that the law in respect of copyrighted material is a little “fudged” by some, so I hope this clears up a few issues.

Let me link the source of my quotes of what Ms Gregg is saying.  They are from her blog http://indianagregg.blogspot.com/ and even in the first few paragraphs she managed to make what I think are poorly considered points.

And right now isn’t very good timing for the file-sharing movement to be looking like a bunch of bullying twats, is it? (oops, see, I’ve just called the ‘bullies’ bullying twats! incredible! what a hypocrit I am. lol)

UPDATE 9/10/2009: This quote is now wrong.  Ms Gregg’s original post has now been changed to read slightly differently (by whom I’ll let you decide).  You can find out more details of this in the comments section.

No Ms Gregg (by the way its hypocrite) I don’t believe you are.  What sort of comment is this?  Are you really trying to put across a serious point (which I agree needs to be addressed) by using words like this?  She goes on to say:

The thing that bothers me most about all this egg throwing, is that these people who do the name-calling are the same ones who hide behind anonymous identities.

Which at first I thought was sarcasm since I could not believe she would make this remark.  Ms Gregg you were/are allegedly a celeb are you not?  You rely on being in the public eye to make money (just like Ms Allen)  Id suggest as a public figure (of sorts) you rise above name calling and at the end of the day why should the “average Joe” reveal their identity?  they are not in the public eye like you are.  Funny you should mention about egg throwing.  I have been abused by many proprietary advocates because of my views on FOSS/Linux.  I expect that and rise above it.  I hide behind an anon identity because I make my opinions and write this blog as a hobby/interest.    Do you have a problem with me?  Rise above it Ms Gregg, if you can’t then I think you do your other celebs a disservice.

I believe another reason why people like Ms Gregg are harmful to a sensible debate is that they seem to be blissfully unaware that whilst rumors of tougher laws and internet police are spread about, people who actually understand the technology behind file sharing are busy making it more difficult for it to be detected.  Nobody seems to grasp this.  Look no further than TOR which could prove problematic to anyone wishing to track/prevent file sharing.  Has Ms Gregg considered this when writing her views?   There is also talk of a new protocol with a decentralized swarm and a sort of chain gang type method of data transfer.  Ive yet to find mention of her acknowledgement of these new technologies and my opinion is that because the entertainment industry has dismissed this technology for so long (in comparison to availability) they will forever be playing catchup.

The issues surrounding Ms Greggs opinion don’t stop there.  Im sure file-sharing per say is not the issue so much as its the taking of material without paying for it.  With that in mind file sharers in the UK need to consider that p2p may result in civil action and/or this rumored “three strikes policy” (see below) and piracy/file sharing for profit would most likely result in a criminal prosecution, where is the legislation for the binary newsgroups?  where is the legislation for the IRC download?  (in respect of the downloader)  What I think will happen is that the more noise and issue made about BT the more of a migration towards the binaries and an even more difficult job for anyone trying to find a beneficial solution for everyone.

If you read the digital Britain report (the one that cost the taxpayer money and IMO told us nothing we didn’t already know) even his this to say on the matter (http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/digitalbritain-finalreport-jun09.pdf) :

In relation to rights, the Government believes piracy of intellectual property
for profit is theft and will be pursued as such through the criminal law. The
civil infringement of taking someone else’s intellectual property or passing it on
to others through file-sharing without any compensating payment is, in plain
English, wrong.
In relation to rights, the Government believes piracy of intellectual property
for profit is theft and will be pursued as such through the criminal law. The
civil infringement of taking someone else’s intellectual property or passing it on
to others through file-sharing without any compensating payment is, in plain
English, wrong.
So it seems to corroborate my opinion that for money its criminal, however sharing without compensation is “wrong” and it does suggest there is no recourse within criminal law.
Now a counter which I’ve seen people make in regards to this is that “legislation will be made to cover this” and I would say, rubbish.  If you think about legislation that would be needed to account for the downloader from a NG you would have to consider that when you record “Friends” or “Coronation Street” off the TV you would be committing the same offence, this is why legislation for the downloader in respect of IRC of NG is unworkable.
Ms Gregg again does not in my opinion seem to be the person with the answers.
The only way that you will be able to avoid these newly proposed laws that could potentially infringe on civil liberties is to come up with a plan that makes sense to law makers.
and as I say does not seem to comprehend the “finer points” of what she is suggesting.
Lets say for one minute that she’s right.  How will ISP’s monitor this?  I am certain that if they were to conduct deep packet inspection of their customers it would have to be on a basis of either being forced to by legislation or by choice (and then users can vote with their feet).  If its by legislation then I would refer any would-be law makers to Article 8 of the Human Rights Act, which says:
Article 8 (right to respect for private and family life) of the Human Rights Act prohibits interference by a public authority against a person private and family life and his home.
Now if we are talking about a police investigation theres RIPR in terms of covert or intrusive observation.  However unless we are talking about making file-sharing itself an illegal act, I’d suggest that forcing ISP’s to monitor users by legislation would be in contravention of Article 8 and in any case, it still doesn’t answer the question of what can be done when the downloader DOESN’T share?
CONCLUSION
So whats my answer?  I think instead of looking for ways to punish (three strikes et al) the industry should start looking at ways of giving users what they want (free material) and making a profit at the same time.  Whilst Ms Gregg appears to claim that piracy harms innovation (and I dispute that, in fact I think the Internet is responsible for more new artists/musicians than anything else in our creative history.  I don’t see any evidence of small “up and coming” creative talents being harmed by piracy, in fact I see the opposite and I’m very shortly going to be highlighting one such band in the coming weeks.  The trouble is with people like Ms Allen, when they make their case, people are well aware they have made good money out of the industry.
Why would Ms Allen delete her blog?  If she was receiving abuse she could simply block all comments?  Could it be that she has seen the adverse effect making comments like these can have?  But my main question is, why do entertainers insist on commenting on technology?
The other problem we have (IMO) in terms of coming to a solution is that it appears everyone is pulling in a different direction.  There are some artists who think file-sharing is great, some who don’t and FACT who are claiming that if you buy a pirate DVD you are helping to fund criminal gangs (and in my opinion wrongly creating a good justification for file sharing)  We need continuity, we need one voice and that voice needed to be reasoned. (IMO)
Before we finish lets remind ourselves with the contents of some of  the emails TPB received from Ms Gregg and her husband Ian Morrow when this silliness started over a year ago :
In the UK ( and most other countries) file sharing by torrent or otherwise is illegal
Really?  Act and Section please.
Note for readers:  The burden of proof in the civil courts is “balance of probabilities” whereas in criminal law its “beyond all reasonable doubt”  Can any reader name me one CRIMINAL case where a not-for-profit filesharer has been found guilty.  The civil route (IMO) is much more desirable anyway for companies as it has less of a burden of proof.
Here is a comment Ms Gregg is alleged to have made via email to TPB (which can be found on their site)

I am a millionaire and do not claim to be bankrupt.
Again asking the question, is Ms Gregg really suitable to be a crusader for a sensible file-sharing debate?
http://static.thepiratebay.org/legal/indianagregg_resp4.txt


OTHER MATERIAL

Ian Morrow is the husband of Indiana Gregg and since he's not really relevant to this article I'll only mention this, there are allegations of her and her husbands behavior on the internet, one of the allegations is nymshifting in order to make comments.  I'll let you look at these in your own time and form your own conclusions.  Maybe if Ms Gregg was to visit here and comment she could respond to the allegations on this link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3977511/Indiana-Gregg-and-Ian-Morrow-Still-mastering-the-internet

Are these allegations helping put forward a sensible debate?  Already as I type this I see an anon commenter on Ms Greggs blog starting the insults.  Firstly they are doing what Ms Gregg appears not to like (hiding behind an anon handle) but secondly they say "The type of person who has plenty of time to make commentary but more than likely does nothing." and I would ask, what are they doing?  I have no interest in either the downloading of copyrighted material nor the loss encountered by it, I am a FOSS advocate by nature and a supporter of the GPL and its ethos.  What is funny is that just like we see in the proprietary advocacy community Ms Greggs commenter doesn't seem to follow the truth too well.  He/she implies I said: "Musicians shouldn't have anything to say about piracy" and I never said that. What I do say is that the answer should be found by people that a/ have no financial interest in the matter and b/ understand the technology and its implications.  
I,  of course already said this, but the post on Ms Greggs site who goes by the name of  "the uneducated" seems to have missed the comment I made at the time of:
These are but a few examples of why Allen, Gregg et al IMO should not be involved in a solution to piracy or a technology discussion. If a solution is to be found it needs to be tackled with level heads, sensible discussion, but most importantly someone without a financial interest in the subject IMO. 


I mention nothing of them not being able to give opinion on piracy, but I don't believe (and I could be wrong) that either Ms Gregg or Allen are part time systems engineers (hence their ability to understand the tech may be limited) and since they both have a financial interest, I don't think they should be involved in its solution.  Thats my opinion. 
Of course musicians and everyone else should have an opinion although hasn't Ms Gregg (or her husband) got more of an input into the piracy debate than merely commenting on the web?  The question I ask is that why when Ms Gregg/Allen or Lars Ulrich have made comment all they do is create flame wars and draw even more attention to file-sharing arguably increasing the problem?  Could it be that they are tackling the subject wrong and the manner in which they put their opinions across is inappropriate for an issue that costs people their jobs, destroys small firms and stiffles creativity (IMO).
I'll let you decide.  I would ask now though that all piracy/file sharing chat be restricted to this article.  I think I have typed all I can on the subject.  I am happy to respond to any posters but since we have major Linux distro's ready for release this month which need looking at and there is some good news on the long overdue Openbytes podcast, aswell as some interesting developments in the emu scene, I'd rather not have to devote any more article time to a subject which does not affect me in any way.
Goblin - bytes4free@googlemail.com



22 Comments

  1. openbytes says:

    I thought I would make one other observation. Unlike this site (and many others who believe in free speech) moderation is not required. I have put a response to the user calling him/herself “the uneducated” however the comment has not been approved.

    It will be interesting to see what (if any) response I get from Ms Gregg. I would question just how much support she actually has since the petition which she links to (at time of writing this) only has 43 signatures, suggesting to me either her views are going ignored by the masses or the masses simply disagree with her. It could be that the petition is non-specific and disjointed (IMO) .Who knows? since her comments need moderation there is no way of telling what people are thinking until she gets around to approving them.

  2. the uneducated says:

    I answered your comments on Indiana Gregg’s blog, but, since you felt the need to include my comment in your discussion, I’ve put my response here too.

    @openbytes To be frank, anyone affected by file-sharing has a right to comment about solutions. It’s hypocritical to believe in free speech and then not respect other people’s open commentary. My comment above about your blog is not libelous because it only infers that you ‘sound uneducated’ (and in my opinion, that’s how your blog came across).

    Saying that musician’s shouldn’t be entitled to make commentary about file-sharing due to their vested financial interest is like saying that union workers on strike shouldn’t be negotiating for themselves on behalf of their interests. I believe that musicians have every right to contribute to creating and putting together possible solutions. It is, obviously, their livelihood and work that is being exploited.

    How does someone like yourself who claims to advocate free speech feel the need to suggest that other people wouldn’t be deemed’appropriate’ to discuss an open topic?

    You seem to ‘infer; quite a bit. How do you know whether Lily Allen or Indiana Gregg have technical knowledge or not. There are thousands of musician’s who practice other trades. For all you know, they both could be programmers. But, what difference would it make? I design websites and work on open source projects regularly. I don’t know much about Lily Allen’s technical knowledge, but, I have read and seen that Ms. Gregg has been working on a few technical projects. I for one believe that technically, a license for music on the internet is entirely pheasible and so would a tax on ISPs. There is no technical reason why that couldn’t or shouldn’t work as a solution for the media industries.

    Unlike yourself (@openbytes), I DON’T believe that file-sharing is ‘wrong’. However, it is wrong that musician’s and creators (film, etc) are the only one’s who are not receiving any compensation from their works which are being freely exploited and until that problem is solved, it will continue to be morally wrong. Everyone in the chain receives except for the creative people and industries. When it comes to sites like TPB who were earning millions (according to what was revealed in their case) off other people’s works. That is fundamentally very wrong. The sharer’s get the goods, the ISPs are paid, the hosts are paid, etc. all receive payment except for the artistic and creative people who’s products are being reproduced by the masses. Therefore, there is too much supply which reduces the value. Which for the file-sharers makes mass free consumption of other people’s work somehow acceptable? NO. It is not acceptable. And it’s indisputable.

    The Uneducated is my band’s name BTW so I don’t consider it an anon that I’m hiding behind.

  3. openbytes says:

    Quote “@openbytes To be frank, anyone affected by file-sharing has a right to comment about solutions. It’s hypocritical to believe in free speech and then not respect other people’s open commentary. ”

    Very true and as I put in my blog many celebs have put their opinions forward in regards to piracy. This is good. I happen to take the issue of piracy VERY seriously, I think its harmful, I think its damaging but above all else its simply wrong. I have no problem with anyone putting their views forward, but when a celeb does so in a way either like Ms Allen (and forgets that she has similar allegations against her) or Ms Gregg where we get a sort of gleeful use of immature wording (IMO) eg Tw%t, it damages sensible debate and hampers the chance of sensible debate.

    Food for thought: I didn’t see Elton John creating waves when he made his opinions clear, why was that?

    Quote “Saying that musician’s shouldn’t be entitled to make commentary about file-sharing due to their vested financial interest is like saying that union workers on strike shouldn’t be negotiating for themselves on behalf of their interests. I”

    I didn’t say that. What I said was the debate in order to find the solution. As I say, I dont believe Ms Gregg to be a coder and aware of HOW the technology works. What I would expect in a sensible debate about solutions is an understanding of HOW it works and the implications in respect of new protocols that could be implimented because of it.

    Quote “How does someone like yourself who claims to advocate free speech feel the need to suggest that other people wouldn’t be deemed’appropriate’ to discuss an open topic?”

    I hope Ive answered that and I would hope that comments such as “Im a millionaire” or the ones we saw quoted in the article would be agreed that instead of helping put forward a sensible view only create flame wars and bad feeling….am I wrong? well why has no other celeb who has anti-piracy views been subjected to the abuse that Ms Gregg has? Theres something wrong somewhere.

    Quote “Unlike yourself (@openbytes), I DON’T believe that file-sharing is ‘wrong’.”

    and again you try to imply opinion on my behalf. I never said filesharing per say is wrong. It is wrong when you are doing it and breaching the copyright holders wishes. I use the BT protocol to share Linux distros and work released under the GPL. When you imply (wrongly) that I think all filesharing is wrong you should look no further than Ms Gregg and the email she is alleged to have sent TPB.

    Software/creative freedom is something I support, but if you had been that interested in my views you would have seen on my blog that I often say that software/creative freedom needs to extend to the creators also and give them the choice to release their material in any way they wish either under the GPL or closed source proprietary (in respect of software)
    If people don’t like the fact that a certain product is proprietary, then they should simply boycott it altogether and not download/share.

    Please stop putting your views about my opinion without researching properly.

    Quote “When it comes to sites like TPB who were earning millions (according to what was revealed in their case) off other people’s works. That is fundamentally very wrong.”

    Completely agree, but in the space between Ms Greggs last challenge of then and now, NOTHING HAS CHANGED and goodness knows how many of TB’s have been transferred at a loss to the industry. This is the point I making, whilst some people are busy putting predictions and opinion on the net, it is continuing to loose money. I expect Ms Gregg (and her husband who I believe has an involvement in a government think-tank on piracy????) would like to find an answer to the issue. That answer will not be found by mis-representing (IMO) UK law and making predictions about how things might turn out.

    Quote “The Uneducated is my band’s name BTW so I don’t consider it an anon that I’m hiding behind.”

    and now you’ve explained/confirmed then to me you are no longer anon. I hope you don’t take offense but when I saw the poster handle “uneducated” and then a comment implying I said something that I didn’t and calling me “uneducated” I took the view that your handle was anon.

    I do hope you return as it seems Ms Gregg is unavailable to answer the other points I put forward. I thought she wants the piracy debate? I thought she wants to put her opinions across? Maybe even just answering which Act and Section of UK law covers the act of filesharing with the BT protocol?

  4. openbytes says:

    NOTE TO READERS.

    I am not sure what is going on here. I follow the link to Ms Greggs filesharing article and find that AGAIN people are claiming I am saying things which I have not.

    The user Stan claims in the comment section:

    “The guy just keeps contradicting himself but he can’t see it. He does not approve of filesharing but then bad mouths Ms. Gregg about it. And to cap it all, like others before him, he spouts on about ‘record companies can afford it’ without realising how corrosive filesharing is and the effect it is having on the record industry.”

    Where on earth did I say that companies could afford it? What is going on here? Why is Stan claiming I said these things, but more importantly why is there not a comment in relation to the points I did bring up?

    I think I will refer this on further and it seems to me that there are unanswered questions here that I as a creator of a small blog am not getting the answer to.

    Additonal:

    It was asked how I know (or imply) that Indiana Gregg or Lily Allen didn’t have a coding background or technical understanding of the protocol. I would say that I can’t know for sure although if they had you would expect to see that knowledge come through in their views as there are several very good points that strengthen the anti-piracy view and many implications in the way the companies are playing catchup to a technology which they haven’t seem to have grasped until it was too late. (IMO)

    I HAVE SUBMITTED A RESPONSE TO STAN ON INDIANA GREGGS BLOG. I AM NOT HAPPY THAT I HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE COMMENT TO BE MODERATED BEFORE MY COUNTER TO WHAT STAN CLAIMED IS POSTED.

  5. Pete Mossley says:

    I have read this blog today through the comments on the Indiana Greggs blog and if I were to be brutally objective, your blog is very unobjective and it seems as though you are trying to denigrate rather than be constructive. Nearly every quote you have taken from her blog had nothing to do with the intent of her blog from what I can see. Indiana Gregg is a serial entrepreneur. I’m not surprised if she is indeed a millionaire and I’m also not surprised if her independently owned record label was nearly bankrupt at one point. However, she said herself that TPB didn’t publish the conversation in it’s entirity and TPB said themselves that they make an effort to ridicule. The link to the other comments that ‘allegedly’ relate to her record producer husband don’t look like a reliable source at all and since nobody could find any ‘mix tapes’ or anything else that would sling dirt on her, some random blogger made up some IP addesses from something he found on a wikipedia entry? That is one of the silliest things I have ever heard of and does look as though the enraged blogger was dying to find ‘something’. I have scraped the internet about her subject because I met her at p2p conference in Germany at Popkomm. If she is guilty of anything, it would be cleverly manipulation. Stating that she is a millionaire is actually a brilliant move because it makes the point about ‘what does it matter’. When I read her blog today when she calls the name callers ‘bullying twats’ and then says that she’s being hypocrical and also mentioning that the sarcasm was intented just shows how much people like you enjoy taking a debate completely out of context. I went to her blog after reading the review from Oreilly because she has been working on an audio product and the reviewer mentions that she’s a musician and obviously an audiophile. At the p2p conference she sounded as though she had a lot of technical know how and spoke a lot about technologies that I hadn’t heard of yet. I’m a programmer and had no trouble having a conversation with her. Also speaking at the conference were representatives from China, Russia, UK, Germany and even the man who invented the mp3 himself. Personally, I wouldn’t mention Lily Allen and Ms. Gregg in the same sentence. Their agendas and points of view are completely different. Gregg is devoted to improving the rights of all musicians with regards to digital rights and she is very genuine about that. She is not siding with major labels or big industry, she is adamant about protecting the livliehoods of creative people. Most of your implications are completely the opposite of what she’s on about.

  6. openbytes says:

    SORRY FOR THE DELAY. JUST READ THE RESPONSE NOW.

    Quote “your blog is very unobjective and it seems as though you are trying to denigrate rather than be constructive. ”

    My first question would be how? Please give examples so that I at least have the opportunity to elaborate or explain further.

    Quote “Nearly every quote you have taken from her blog had nothing to do with the intent of her blog from what I can see.”

    and I never said it did. I am trying to establish/create a proper discussion without the “egg throwing and infantile insults that have been seen before”

    Quote “I’m not surprised if she is indeed a millionaire and I’m also not surprised if her independently owned record label was nearly bankrupt at one point”

    Not the point. The issue I was trying to raise was that in order for this debate and issue to be resolved it has at least got to have a basis of sensibility. Ms Greggs financial situation is of no interest to me and not relevant to a debate on piracy.

    Quote “he link to the other comments that ‘allegedly’ relate to her record producer husband don’t look like a reliable source at all and since nobody could find any ‘mix tapes’ or anything else that would sling dirt on her, some random blogger made up some IP addesses from something he found on a wikipedia entry?”

    Very true, thats why I refer to them as allegations. I notice though there has been no challenge of those allegations. If that were me, I would at least want to set the facts straight.

    The mix tapes allegations refer to Ms Allen and have been reported from many sources, again though since this is MY blog and the claim is theirs, I can only refer to them as allegations. In respect of the mix tapes, where are the rebuttals of those allegations?

    Quote “f she is guilty of anything, it would be cleverly manipulation. Stating that she is a millionaire is actually a brilliant move because it makes the point about ‘what does it matter’.”

    Rubbish. That in my opinion is a good way to backtrack a poorly worded counter. In my opinion it was a totally inappropriate way to respond to a confrontational email by TPB. I cannot believe ANY PR agent would advise their client to respond like that. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Quote “a lot about technologies that I hadn’t heard of yet. I’m a programmer and had no trouble having a conversation with her.”

    IF you are a coder then you will appreciate the diverse range of technologies, of course everyone has their area of expertise, what I am talking about is a experience and understanding around the technologies such as deep packet inspection, the BT protocol itself.
    Your comment means nothing, I only learnt about the HDMP3 format the other day as I have no interest in proprietary compression technologies in relation to media. (Ogg is what I champion)

    Quote ” Personally, I wouldn’t mention Lily Allen and Ms. Gregg in the same sentence. Their agendas and points of view are completely different. ”

    Never said the contrary. They are though both against piracy. This is a debate about piracy.

    Quote “She is not siding with major labels or big industry, she is adamant about protecting the livliehoods of creative people.”

    Firstly, I never said she was and secondly I would have no issue if she did. I could care less if piracy is affecting a small or large company, it is still wrong. Where is Indiana Gregg then on what is considered to be the greatest threat to innovation, that being software patents? Where is Ms Gregg is relation to the exhibits produced in Comes V Microsoft. True, they are not related to the music scene, but if she is a campaigner for creativity and innovation shouldn’t these be top of her list?

    Quote “Most of your implications are completely the opposite of what she’s on about.”

    Please will you (and others) stop with your implications of what I mean. If you are going to make claims about my opinion at least give examples and not generalizations. I have been quite clear when explaining law and the exchange of emails between Ms Gregg TPB and even on her latest blog entry.

    I put it to her that the way she is tackling this subject is inappropriate. I ask her to respond to the points I make and also ask her to consider why other musicians can stand against piracy and not receive the fall out she appears to get.

    I take the issue of piracy VERY seriously. I am not only keen for a means to be found which embraces the new technology which like it or not will not go away. I am keen for record labels, artists and all employed to be well rewarded for their work and in addition I am interested in something which will be good for the end user too. What I suggest is that whilst the anti-piracy cause is a very good one to work on, I don’t believe comments and the approach that Ms Gregg takes are helping people like me, who agree with the anti-piracy stance and want to see a resolution that is benefitial for everyone.

    One last time, if people are going to challenge me, great. But please give examples or quote me when you challenge my points. I did so with Ms Greggs opinion. Why won’t anyone do it with mine?

  7. openbytes says:

    (And not directed to Pete in particular)

    Why hasn’t Ms Gregg responded? Im sure she is very busy (and thats fine) but at least a few lines to say for example, “I am unable to respond, please keep an eye on my blog for further views”

    I spent ALOT of time on that article. In fact I spend quite a bit of time highlighting and championing proprietary business models. I have had sensible discussions with people who take the anti-piracy stance but bring it to the fore in a sensible and non-flame war encouraging way.

    In fact when I posted these views on Torrent freak a while back, I only received abuse from ONE poster. I think that suggests that tackled correctly we can all discuss these issues sensibly.

    I have received quite a bit of post in regards to this article, I am happy to say non of it abusive but it is mostly pro-piracy opinion. I think that says much about the common opinion. It would not be fair to start quoting it until I have at least given Ms Gregg (or her representative) a chance to respond.

    Am I really being unreasonable or unfair to either viewpoint here?

  8. whaaaat is.. says:

    Why don’t you contact her on myspace or twitter? She may not know about your blog. I only came here because I clicked on your name in her comments from her blog.

  9. openbytes says:

    I think she would since she has been commenting on her blog and my site was highlighted to her by another user.

    What I find strange is that other people who have commented on her blog and engaged in the conversation have arrived here and to be fair she has corrected/ammended one point I made.

    She originally said on her blog:

    “(oops, see, I’ve just called the ‘bullies’ bullying twats! incredible! what a hypocrit I am. lol)”

    To which I remarked that not only “hypocrit” should be “hypocrite” but also appears to have amended her comment to:

    (oops, see, I’ve just called the ‘bullies’ bullying twats! incredible! How hypocritical…’sarcasm intended’… I am. lol)

    So it appears (IMO) she is well aware.

    This now presents me with another issue. I personally think the re-editing of an original post is wrong. If she wished to clarify/change her stance IMO she should have done that in the comments section and not simply modified her original text which was one of the reasons I took issue with her post.

    Whats the point of anyone putting their opinion on the net only to edit it after an issue has been raised and no mention of the editing made?

    I’ll let the readers decide that one, but what will follow is the reply Im having to make to Ms Gregg here since it appears she isn’t willing to comment here.

  10. openbytes says:

    FOR READERS, THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO MS GREGGS COMMENT ON HER BLOG WHICH CAN BE FOUND HERE: http://indianagregg.blogspot.com/2009/09/solutions-for-copyright-p2p-and-civil.html

    To Ms Gregg,

    Here is my reply to your blog comment. It is obvious now that the people who commented on your blog are checking mine (I have the stats on refers) so I will answer here as I think the moderation on your comments section prevents me from responding as quickly as I would like.

    I would firstly presume now that you have read my blog and my views about your article editing, I won’t expect an answer on that as you didn’t seem to mention it on your comment.

    Quote “The funny thing about this openbyte’s blog is there is some kind of attempt to discredit both myself and Ian pointing to a URL which actually is completely libelous in nature.”

    Really Ms Gregg? I made it very clear that the allegation was not mine and I gave you the opportunity to respond to that allegation. I made no reference to your guilt or innocence in the matter and if you check “left it up to my readers to decide” I then re-iterated that point in my comments section.

    You have now done what I requested (albeit on your own blog) that was to answer the allegation of nymshifting.
    End of the matter.

    Quote “Nevermind that the full emails between myself and TPB were not fully ‘shared’ either.”

    Really? Was that shared with your readers at the time? If you have a link to that particular information I would be happy to publish it.

    Quote “People seem to enjoy putting words in other people’s mouths that were never said nor implied.”

    I hope you are not referring to me, if you are could you please quote me where I have done so.

    Quote “I’m not a professional blogger”

    Neither am I.

    Quote “My life doesn’t revolve around people reading blogs”

    Neither does mine.

    Quote “I think most people are clever enough to know that if something is on the internet or in a blog, it doesn’t make it true”

    and the exact reason why I tried to put those points to you in order to clear things up.

    Quote “Blogs that encourage or spread falsehoods about other people are not attempts at practicing ‘free speech’, they hope to denigrate”

    Completely agree. Its one of the mission statements of this blog, to challenge FUD (Fear,Uncertainty,Doubt) I hope that comment is not aimed at me as I have spread no falsehoods, referred to 3rd party material as allegations and given you the opportunity to respond.

    Ms Gregg, it would be nice if you would respond directly to me.

    Finally….

    ***********
    TO: T. Marshall

    Thanks for asking the question. Good point. The reason why I brought up the issue of software patents is because I interpretted Ms Greggs comment of:

    ” The Internet has provided some of the greatest forms of distribution of Intellectual Property and ‘copyright’ ever known to man. If you like what you’re using, why not defend it properly?”

    To encompass the umbrella of creativity which is harmed by piracy, since coders can be considered creative and their work can be stifled by software patents then I thought it relevant.

    To end I would like to add (to the person who asked the question what am I doing in respect of anti-piracy) I would like to respond that I have repeatedly covered it and highlighted the harmful effects of piracy to readers, I take every opportunity to try to show how it is harmful and I promote FOSS not only because its better (IMO) than proprietary but that it free’s the end user of any copyright.

    I do not have the ear of the government, I do not work within the entertainment industry, I do what I can to promote an anti-piracy message and with the little abuse I receive in respect of it consider myself quite successful. As I say, this needs to be solved with sensible debate and level heads.

  11. whaaaat is.. says:

    I sent her the link on facebook and she wrote back and said that someone else had sent her a copy today and she will respond but she:

    “haven’t really had time to do much more than skim the article and I’m not sure what this person is requesting commentary about. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I’ll have a closer look over the weekend. Thank you for sending the link. Keep on keeping on:)”

  12. openbytes says:

    She seems to have made her response to me on her blog in her latest comment.

    I took great exception to her implication that I was trying to discredit her. This is not about HER this is not about me or indeed any other individual on the net. The issue is piracy and what can be done to resolve it and find a mutually agreed system for everyone is it not?

    I still wait for ANYONE to quote me where there is a problem with my article. Nobody will quote me directly and merely generalize giving me no opportunity to defend a particular point or opinion.

    I made comment in regards to allegations and Ms Greggs own comments in respect of the question is she the person to be finding a solution? and thats not for me to judge, I have my own opinion but would hope people draw their own conclusions. What I am bothered about is whilst she is making suggestions (and others too) the points I make about the problems with implementing existing laws (or indeed the creation of new ones) are going unanswered.

    For example, where is the criminal offence of an NZB binary grabber? How would a civil action be brought against a NG download? The same for IRC.

    This really strengthens my point that if you fixate on one area (BT protocol for example) you are missing an entire other means of data delivery.

    I ask the question about the “three strikes policy” which I believe if any reasonable person thinks about is entirely unworkable and has the potential to be chaotic.(see below)

    a/ What happens to the company whose employee uses the work machines to share material?

    b/ What about the family of a young person?

    c/ How would the data packets be inspected for copyrighted material and how would that conflict with Article 8?

    d/ The government (I believe) is proposing open wifi spots, how are these to be policed?

    e/ (As above) where is the recourse for the downloader who DOESNT share.

    f/ What about the upcoming election, if the Tories win, whats their stance on this issue? What about the Liberals? Will the three strikes idea still be floating around next summer?

    I could go on, I wont.

    The point I’m trying to make is this is not a simple discussion, nor does it have a simple solution. I have my ideas on how its possible to solve, but I think just as some people have an ignorance of the technologies involved, I have an ignorance of the music scene and it s inner workings (and I would not seek to comment on them for that reason)

    Lets be realistic here and in respect of any wouldbe legislation or sanctions, its merely discussion at the moment.

    Didn’t we see similar predictions from Ms Gregg over a year ago when the whole TPB incident turned into the public circus?

    How many TB’s of data have been transferred since then and at what cost to the industry?

  13. whaaaat is.. says:

    don’t know man. But, she did make a statement to the FAC about the three strikes squeeze saying that she wouldn’t sign the petition although she did respect Lily for speaking her mind. Why not just send her an FB message. If you have ideas. Why not?

  14. whaaaat is.. says:

    just so I can help you out. This is a quote from you which doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the debate but might be having something to do with her response on her blog:

    “Ian Morrow is the husband of Indiana Gregg and since he’s not really relevant to this article I’ll only mention this, there are allegations of her and her husbands behavior on the internet, one of the allegations is nymshifting in order to make comments. I’ll let you look at these in your own time and form your own conclusions. Maybe if Ms Gregg was to visit here and comment she could respond to the allegations on this link:

    Are these allegations helping put forward a sensible debate?”

    IMO, referring to allegations would be considered by most people as an attempt to discredit someone especially in this instance because you were supporting your idea about why she shouldn’t be debating due to (in this instance referring to your blog) lack of credibility because someone posted this ‘alleged’ act. Since you posted the link, it would mean that you give it some kind of substance since you are using it as an argument against her ability to credibly comment about piracy. (you were asking for examples). If you would like for me to quote more examples from your blog, I can, but, I’m not here to do that.

  15. openbytes says:

    Quote “….discredit someone especially in this instance because you were supporting your idea ”

    and as Ive already said, the question to be considered is (and I repeat) is Ms Gregg the person to be making the public stance on anti-piracy? It is a question. The answer may be yes it may be no. I repeat, I have my own opinions, but its up to others how much weight they put in ANYONE’S opinion on the net.

    I refered to that link as an ALLEGATION. I said again that it WAS NOT MINE.

    Quote “Since you posted the link, it would mean that you give it some kind of substance since you are using it as an argument against her ability to credibly comment about piracy.”

    Yes, If she had claimed that her and her husband HAD done that it would be very relevant. The ALLEGATION was there for her oportunity to respond, she did (and denied it). As I say, end of the matter.

    Food for thought here, on the basis we are not in a court AND neither the person making the allegation NOR Ms Gregg have put forward concrete evidence, who is to say who is at fault?

    Quote “If you would like for me to quote more examples from your blog, I can,”

    I’d love you to since you appear not to have grasped how it works. Allegation is highlighted, person responds.

    You tell me, as an “outsider” are you suggesting that I ignore all other points of view but Ms Greggs? Are you suggesting that with any viewpoint on the net I simply accept it without considering anyone else’s. You seem to be blissfully unaware that I am not in a position of knowledge about what Ms Gregg has or hasn’t done. THIS IS WHY I MADE THE LINKS AND ASK THE QUESTION.

    I saw first hand how a simple (and reasonable) takedown request to TPB turned into a circus (IMO). It was obvious to anyone watching the exchange of emails that TPB would not budge on their stance, yet the exchange continued and IMO made a mockery out of the entire anti-piracy stance. Ms Gregg suggests that the emails were wrongly represented. THEN LET US SEE WHAT THEY DID SAY. Unless I’m wrong, Ms Gregg never mentioned any of this at the time and as I said before to her, give me a link to her evidence/account, I will be more than happy to publish it.

    All this is accademic though because as I said before the reason for my commenting on Ms Gregg’s opinion was for the “tw%t” remark she made in her own blog post. While you consider that, I now have to ask the question why someone edited that original comment (seemingly after I highlighted it) and then has made no reference to that edit. – I have screen grabs btw.

    I have a suggestion. Why doesn’t Ms Gregg give her view on the allegations Ive highlighted (thats all Ive asked) and then we can move on to the real issue (and the more important one IMO) of piracy and the issues I raised in regards to legislation and solution to the problem?

    By the way, who are you? Do you represent Ms Gregg or are you affiliated with her in some way?

  16. openbytes says:

    Whilst I wait for the poster to respond to my comment above I would like to add a little to when they said:

    Quote “Since you posted the link, it would mean that you give it some kind of substance since you are using it as an argument against her ability to credibly comment about piracy.”

    The other point I was highlighting with that allegation was that others in the public eye have made anti-piracy comments AND NOT recieved the fall out Ms Gregg has. I didn’t see Elton John have similar allegations against him (as I believe he openly supports the anti-piracy stance) I didn’t see Lord Mandelson have those type of allegations put to him when he made his comments. That is the other reason why I believed it was important to highlight and also why it was important for Ms Gregg to set the record straight.

  17. whaaaat is.. says:

    Not sure. I don’t know her. I just sent her a message on facebook and she responded to me dude. I didn’t know she had a fall out. I saw a lot of stuff about Elton John though but I don’t think he wrote a blog about piracy. Lily allen did put up a bit of a stink but since she erased her blog, she’s more of a ‘victim’ now. Maybe it’s because Gregg was very cut throat and honest with her opinions. Maybe it was because she wasn’t a big major artist. P2p supporters had kept banging on with ideas about how independent artists were benefiting from file sharing and in pops Gregg who was considered the ultimate DIY chic and she makes a statement that blasts away at a lot of the arguments that the pirates were making. It’s different if a major artist makes that kind of statement because people just shrug it off with ‘oh, did your big label or big manager make you say that’. Where when an indie artist makes such a clear cut statement about how the land lies, it can stir up a lot of shit.

  18. openbytes says:

    I’ll answer you first “what is…” and then move onto another comment since Ive had direct email contact with Ms Gregg and I would like to put forward some points.

    I think we have been distracted with the issue of the previous allegations which are nothing to do with the piracy debate as a whole. If you read my next comment I will elaborate further, but what I would say to you is, putting Ms Gregg and the allegations to one side, why has nobody challenged my points Ive made in respect of law & wouldbe policy? Surely anyone with an anti-piracy stance like me would consider these issues important and when I put them out I hoped it would spark a debate about how a solution can be found.

    It was probably a mistake on my behalf to even mention the allegations since its turned into a pantomime of “oh no I didnt” when the important issues of debating possible problems with current thinking on trying to tackle piracy are being ignored.

    I will leave it there for a minute as I have an important message to put forward which I hope will end part of the debate.

  19. whaaaat is.. says:

    dude, your blog is long. What are the main points about would be policy. Hang on, I’ll go and read it again.

    1. openbytes says:

      Yes because I believe if someone takes the time to respond to me I should give them the courtesy of a full answer.

  20. openbytes says:

    NOTE: I am assuming the email I received is really from Ms Gregg, I have no reason to doubt it, but if information comes to light that it is fake then obviously I will inform people here.

    I have had direct email contact with Ms Gregg. She asks me not to quote her directly which of course I will oblige, I have never had any wish to discredit her and am pleased she has responded to the allegations made by others.

    For the record Ms Gregg denies the allegations against her, to be fair she provided me with a very detailed account of what actually happened and even a piece of photographic evidence. At the end of the day my opinion is just another one for people to judge themselves, but for me Ms Gregg has satisfied me that the allegations against her are false. As she has asked me not to quote her directly, I am put in a difficult position of putting over my opinion and following her wishes.

    I think if Ms Gregg is guilty of anything it would be not robustly challenging the allegations enough when they first appeared on the net.

    That for me is the end of issue in regards to the allegations highlighted.

    Ms Gregg also provides an explanation that her blog was edited prior to reading my comments. I cannot disprove or prove that statement but will take her on her word.

    Do I think any creative talent in the music sector is suitable for finding a solution to piracy? No. Until I can be introduced to an artist with the experience/background of the technologies involved I think its important the solution is found by people who have the experience, not (IMO) Lord Mandelson, not Lily Allen and not Ms Gregg (or any other celeb that has made an anti-piracy stance.) Thats my opinion, yours may differ but I draw your attention to the fact that with digital Britain reports, Lord Mandelsons suggested three strikes policy and the plethora of other doom and gloom predictions, filesharing continues to rise, artists are not being compensated and even now the filesharers are changing the rules by developing new technologies.

    Forgetting piracy for a second, the BT protocol has never really impressed me (I use BT over on the Linuxtracker site, which before anyone implies anything is a tracker that tracks Linux distros and therefore legitimate). Sure it is very good at saving server bandwidth for the distributor and enabling a wider distribution of that material, but ive yet to be part of a swarm with a transfer rate anywhere near “FTP”…ever. P2p technology is already now considered “too open” and coincidently ComputerWorld are running an article stating this, going on to say that anon servers are attracting the filesharers (that goes back to my point about the absence of sharing and how it affects those seeking a copyright law recourse.

    What I ask to everyone now is, can anyone counter the issues I raised in regards to the three strikes policy and suggest that I’m wrong? Can anyone correct me with an example of criminal copyright theft where there was no sharing involved? These are basic issues which nobody, either the filesharers themselves nor the anti-piracy groups wish to tackle.

    Please, now that hopefully Ms Greggs stance has been put forward, can someone please find fault with the points Ive raised in respect of everything else?

  21. openbytes says:

    ———
    IMPORTANT
    ———

    I have been in conversation with Ms Gregg and have the answers to many questions. She has been friendly and informative and I believe that unlike a “normal blogger” Ms Gregg has very little time to dedicate to responses and blogging (due to a busy workload).

    That being said, she has answered my challenge of “is she suitable to comment” with an impressive display of experience and interest in the technology world. I still think there are issues of law that need addressing in respect of the copyright issue but those can wait until another time and I would like other people to answer.

    I will be writing an interview/article blog entry for the conversations between Ms Gregg and myself as not only does it make interesting reading but it may also help to put an end to what are in my opinion libelous comments about her over the years.

    The Openbytes ethos is “challenging FUD…” and when, like in the case of Ms Gregg we can help to set the record straight, we are more than happy since we highlighted the allegation and Ms Gregg has answered it.

    I expect the article to be up next week as I want to spend some time on what I consider may be a long post! There will be other articles up in the meantime and to all those who have emailed me, I am sorry I just cannot respond to you all. I may have a bit of spare time but not that much!

    FYI this article has received over 700 unique IP reads in the few days its been up. So its obviously a topic people are interested in.

    Kind regards
    Goblin.

    *EDIT* I forgot to add, in the interest of this important message staying in the fore, I will close the comments now on this article until after I’ve published the one on Ms Gregg and setting the record straight. I think its important that this is done and the untrue and unfair allegations against her are stopped before we move on.

    I think in terms of interpretation of UK law, our views on how to tackle piracy and the three strikes policy still differ greatly. But thats good, its a debate. One thing we both agree on though is the harm that piracy does to the any industry/company large or small and in that respect we “sing from the same hymn sheet”

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