XP – Still no reason for upgrade? Vista users f***ing livid?

Vista's great we are repeatedly told....was that your experience? and if not what give you faith in whats being said about 7?
Vista's great we are repeatedly told....was that your experience? and if not what give you faith in whats being said about 7?

I’ve asked the question many times on this blog, Ive had Microsoft employee’s commenting here.  The question was simple, although like the search for an answer to life the universe and everything (no its not 7) I have yet to have any real reply. (IMO)

The question was: What can 7 do that cannot be achieved either natively or via 3rd party software in XP?”

The follow on question that stemmed from no person in my opinion being able to give a definitive answer was: What are you doing with Windows that I cannot do with Linux?”

At time of writing this the jury is still out on that one.  Having been a Vista user in the past I can see a compelling reason to go to 7 if you are insistent on staying with Windows, however I would like you to cast your mind back a few years when you were a happy XP user and remember what Microsoft was saying to you in respect of Vista (and these are taken from Microsoft’s own PR releases which can be found at the following link):

Windows Vista™ makes it easier, safer and more entertaining to use the PC virtually anytime and anywhere.

Safer? Well my PC spent more time switched off when it had Vista so I suppose that was true.  Entertaining?  At the time no, I suppose in hindsight I can look back at myself struggling with it and laugh.  Lets look at some more comments:

Windows Vista represents the highest-quality and most responsive Microsoft® operating system

I assure you, Microsoft actually said this about Vista.  Was this your opinion of it?

New technology in Windows Vista makes the PC significantly more responsive when performing everyday tasks.

I will stop there as I think you get the point.  What I am trying to show is that we see the same glowing reports for Windows 7 don’t we?  Why should you as a XP user dig into your pocket again and take that gamble on 7?

The saying “if its not broke don’t fix it” is sage advice and heres an articled running on ZD Net where the author points out that his university is staying with Vista for about 4 years.  Heres an example of his experiences of what Microsoft calls “significantly more responsive”

I logged into a Vista-running public PC for the first time today. Well, I say “logged in” to the point where I entered my username and password but got no further as the remaining 12 minutes was waiting on the folder redirection policy. I gave up in the end and went to my lecture.

and goes onto say that:

The problems have been numerous and countless and as my colleague put earlier on, a representative of the students in the education sector, he was, “f***ing livid”.

Now balance that with the people telling you “Vista is loved”.  The point is, whats the advantage of 7 and what faith do YOU have that its going to be a suitable replacement to XP?    Of course now Microsoft want you to spend again and shell out on Windows 7, it will be better this time…promise.  Check for yourself on forums and certain sites we are now seeing the increase in attacks on alternative views as the release date to Windows 7 approaches (IMO)  One such site is a “boycott” site that attacks Boycott Novell and lists what it claims are its members.  I am honored to be listed on that site and I think if they were not worried by what I was saying I would not have a mention at all.  This “site” makes some claims about me.

Firstly it claims that I trolled the Neowin website.  Please check for yourself at what actually occurred there.  I challenged one of there reporters with what I considered as misleading information in respect of the Windows platform.  When I wasn’t answered properly (IMO) I made a blog article about it.  Was that trolling?  Well I suppose if you consider putting an alternative choice to users and challanging misleading information as trolling then I am guilty.  What that “boycott site” fails to mention is that on another occasion under similar circumstances, instead of being met by reasoned debate I had the girlfriend of a NeoWin reporter visit this site (and try in a very infantile way) to insult me.

Secondly the site seeks to imply that my challenging of a Linux user FOR EXACTLY THE SAME THING (misleading information) is some kind of implication that I only challenge Windows reporters and on this occasion got it wrong.  As I said at the time in the BN chat room (which they obviously don’t link to) I made a point that I couldn’t care if misleading information was pro-Linux or pro-Windows, it’s simply incorrect and I would always challenge.  Of course when it comes to pimping proprietary warez, for some, integrity and decency go out of the window (no pun intended)

So now we move on, I am not the only one asking the question about why someone happy with XP should consider upgrade and no matter what you think of my views there are other people asking exactly the same thing I am:

http://www.techspot.com/news/36353-windows-7-launch-may-not-incite-pc-sales.html

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090918040152AAZ3Uw4

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=4658

compiz-fusion
Is this a screen of the allegedly great Windows 7? NO! Its Linux! Remind me Windows users, what are you doing with your software that I cannot do with Linux? Remind me how long your boot time is or what specs Windows would need to achieve the above?

I am not trying to convince you that Linux is a better platform, you can find that out for yourself, what I am suggesting is that when you are considering “upgrading” ask yourself why?

I wrote an article a while ago entitled “Are games the last bastion of salvation for the Windows platform?” and last night I had the pleasure of talking in a chat room with a dev for a software house. * Not confirmed but taken in good faith.  They stated that piracy was destroying the gaming industry on the PC and that the console was the favorable option for gaming products.  I have to agree and couple piracy with the specs the new games require from the PC make it seem we are rapidly heading towards a time when your console will handle all your gaming needs leaving the PC to be the social/productivity machine.

Consider that as more and more apps go web based why should you be spending money on more OS upgrades?  and also consider that when you read pro-Windows comments you may be reading those with a financial interest in the product.  When I champion the numerous Linux distro’s I do, where is the benefit for me?  I will let you judge on where the posting integrity is.  If you are happy with XP why bother upgrading to 7 and take that gamble where you could end up “f**cking livid” like the user in the above example was with Vista.

SILENCED OPPOSITION AND FREE THINKING?

Let me introduce you to the Twitter account hashwindows , what appears to be a RT bot that catches Windows comments.  What I’ve noticed is my comments and views which happened to have the tags that hashwindows searches for (and RT’s) appear to have been deleted.  Why would this be?  Could it be that its a PR bot for pimping Windows? Why does this account not like my comments on Windows and appear to silence them?

I wonder what tactics will be used in the approach to Windows 7…in my opinion you will be praised and RT’d if its favorable to Windows 7.  If its not there are some who have no limits to how low they will go to cheapen your view..(IMO)

Goblin – bytes4free@googlemail.com

31 Comments Add yours

  1. contextfree says:

    “The question was: ‘What can 7 do that cannot be achieved either natively or via 3rd party software in XP?'”

    Absolutely nothing. For that matter, XP can’t do anything that can’t be achieved via 3rd party software in Windows 2000, Windows 2000 can’t do anything that can’t be achieved via 3rd party software in Windows 9x, Linux 2.6.x can’t do anything that can’t be achieved via 3rd party software in Linux 2.4.x, and, ultimately, no OS can do anything that can’t be achieved via 3rd party software on any other OS (or none).

    The question, in other words, shows a lack of understanding of the basic nature of system software.

    1. Chips B Malroy says:

      contextfree says:

      ““The question was: ‘What can 7 do that cannot be achieved either natively or via 3rd party software in XP?’”

      Absolutely nothing. For that matter, XP can’t do anything that can’t be achieved via 3rd party software in Windows 2000, Windows 2000 can’t do anything that can’t be achieved via 3rd party software in Windows 9x, Linux 2.6.x can’t do anything that can’t be achieved via 3rd party software in Linux 2.4.x, and, ultimately, no OS can do anything that can’t be achieved via 3rd party software on any other OS (or none).

      The question, in other words, shows a lack of understanding of the basic nature of system software.”
      ——————————————————
      I have to respectfully disagree with contextfree here. Yes, Seven will not do anything that XP cannot, in that contextfree is correct. However, to say that it does not do more than Windows 9x is just wrong. Windows 9x is basically a single user OS, as such anyone running it is an administrator. There are some things that can be a part of the operating system that are not duplicated by third parties. So contextfree point is just plain wrong.

  2. contextfree says:

    It’s similar to asking “what can I do in Java (or Ruby or C++ or C# or Haskell or …) that I can’t in C (or assembly language or …)”. Absolutely nothing. All Turing-complete languages have equivalent capabilities, in terms of what’s ultimately possible to create with them. Does that mean there’s no reason to use one over another? No, it just means that “what can I do …” is the wrong question.

  3. openbytes says:

    Lol…Yes we’ve had that answer before..and of course you are wrong however the PR responses to the question have to make the claim “well its ok for other packages to do XYZ, so its OK for Windows…”

    I am sure you are already aware of my response since you will have had it many times, but for the other readers (which by the way have been increasing over the year this blog has been in existence and I think shows that many people are now asking a similar question.

    Now before I go any further, have you made the same claim about lack of understanding to the mainstream (and well known journalists) who have said the same thing as me? No of course not…that being said I will now answer you.

    You are wrong in the case of every version of Windows available to the home user, it was usual that the OS accompanied higher specs and newer features…there can be no argument of the differences between say 95 and XP (including but not limited to updated hardware support)…would you like me to explain them to you?

    XP is in a unique position, it offers the hardware support and features of 7 which IMO is more of an upgrade to a failed Vista than a upgrade to XP for most users. The question asked is valid and you mention about kernel upgrades as if they release them simply for the sake of it…that lack of understanding is yours and you simply have to check any kernel mailing lists to see the improvements upgrades to the code.

    Windows on the other hand bug fixes mostly…as I say XP is a mature system and all these features that we see in 7 can be achieved via 3rd party software or natively…

    Now if you had read my post, I ask why upgrade? The question regarding 7 OEM is going to be a moot point for the average user who buys a PC and finds 7 on there already….the question I was asking was why would an existing XP user want to install 7? You answer nothing whilst you are showing lack of understanding of basic nature of system software and a very good understanding of posting FUD I will take your answer as the one I offer to readers.

    So there you go readers, if you are an XP user and are thinking about if you should purchase 7, according to context free, the answer to my question of “What can 7 do that XP cannot either natively or via 3rd party” is NOTHING.

    I hope that helps in your purchasing decision.

  4. openbytes says:

    LOL.

    The second comment by another “new” handle continues to contradict themselves by showing that they had the “little understanding” and their response IMO is typical of what someone who is selling Windows 7 will say.

    Contextfree are you serious in your second post?
    Who did you say had the lack of understanding?

    Lets have a look at what they say:

    “It’s similar to asking “what can I do in Java (or Ruby or C++ or C# or Haskell…”

    LOL, absolute rubbish its not similar at all unless Contextfree is trying to say that the tiny/tight results asm code can produce over C would be viable for say a 4k democomp then theres one advantage of asm over c.

    But their ignorance doesn’t stop there. They then attempt to present the “whats the advantage..” question in the context of comparing high/low level languages…let me give you another example Contextfree….

    I tried to write a simple metaball routine using Python and the pyOpenGL bindings…the results were awful..are you sure you still want to compare languages? In respect of C# I won’t bore, but what I will say is have you seen the filesizes involved?

    I’ll leave it there. Maybe Contextfree will return with more gems of wisdom…

  5. Render says:

    Contextfree is doing his best to sell people 7,what a looser gwahahahaha.

  6. contextfree says:

    “there can be no argument of the differences between say 95 and XP (including but not limited to updated hardware support)…would you like me to explain them to you?”

    Sure. Give me an example of something that can be achieved in XP that is not possible for 3rd party software to achieve in 95, and I’ll see if I agree with you.

  7. openbytes says:

    Simple…

    1. Hardware compat, either natively or because manufacturers do not support the older platform.

    2. Memory addressing, CPU optimization….

    I can go on.

    Want to retract your silly High/low level comparison yet?

  8. contextfree says:

    “I tried to write a simple metaball routine using Python and the pyOpenGL bindings…the results were awful..are you sure you still want to compare languages?”

    Forgive me if I don’t regard the performance of a single program under a single implementation of a language as conclusive proof of a fundamental limitation of that language.

  9. openbytes says:

    I’ll forgive you…it was to highlight the fundamental advantages of using a low level language instead of a high level one and if you don’t see operational speed as a major advantage then I have to ask….Do you work for Microsoft?

  10. openbytes says:

    I am presuming contextfree won’t return and would like to draw your attention to the comment I made when I wrote the article:

    “I wonder what tactics will be used in the approach to Windows 7…in my opinion you will be praised and RT’d if its favorable to Windows 7. If its not there are some who have no limits to how low they will go to cheapen your view..(IMO)”

    and then look at the very first comment I received where they say:

    “The question, in other words, shows a lack of understanding of the basic nature of system software.”

    sort of showing that there are those that set out to cheapen as soon as the “mighty” Windows 7 gets a counter. If contextfree had had a decent argument they would not have had to use that remark. I am thankful though that the usual vulgarity thats used by some of the MS faithful was absent this time.

    To my readers, another tactic that Ive seen employed is to wait until a new topic is posted and then add a “cheeky little cheapen” in the hope that the writer doesnt notice and if anyone in future finds the article it cheapens it. Unfortunately I am wise to that one, we saw it happen numerous time on MS Watch before the environment was regarded by the MS Faithful as being toxic (IMO) and they left, tail between their legs.

    Remember, its your view thats important not mine, contextfree or a Microsoft salesman. Ask the questions, get the system that is best for you.

    I would have liked contextfree to retract his comment since there will be many “average XP users” who have no interest in the nuts and bolts of an OS and simply want to know as consumers what the advantages of paying more money to Microsoft. It doesn’t mean they have lack of understanding it means they want to make informed purchasing decisions.

  11. contextfree says:

    It’s traditional for a program’s semantic correctness to be the overriding consideration, followed by its asymptotic complexity (“big O”), and lastly its specific performance (which of course may vary with the environment). But more to the point, performance generally depends on particular language implementations, not the languages themselves.

    Your examples above are less specific than I was hoping, but I’ll address them when I have time, either tonight or over the weekend.

  12. openbytes says:

    LOL.

    I’m sure…no wonder you took so long to respond (making me think you had given up) you’ve obviously been over to dictionary.com….

    In a nutshell and to make clear what you are saying again its rubbish (its simply a dressed up version of what you said before)

    I will ask again, are you seriously saying that in anyway a highlevel language can compare to a lowlevel one in terms of operational speed? My examples are less specific? Unlike you I am trying to keep this in the understanding of everyone…yes I know the tactic of fudging an answer with fancy words in the hope that because people cannot understand they will simply believe it to be true.

    Please, I have a long list and quite happy to write an entire article on them…just say when.

    In the meantime for my readers who have seen the features of Wine….I ask how can a Windows binary execute quicker through Wine than through native Windows? Go figure….

    Maybe when you come back contextfree you can tell us all about the “great” advantages of XPM in 7? The same XPM that DOESNT offer DX support.

    I think its time the EU forgot the IE issue and concentrated more on the OEM issue.

  13. David Gerard says:

    Hey, I gave you an answer! Reinstalling Windows on a gaming rig a few years old. That’s technically XP plus third-party software (drivers), but even finding out which third-party software is needed was a stupid amount of work, and the convenience of Windows 7 having all the weird-arse drivers on the disk counts as a win to me. And the Linux drivers for the hardware in question are rubbish if they’re even available for current kernels – because the manufacturers decided they like it that way.

    “Windows 7: It’s Just The Thing For Reinstalling Your Old Gaming Rig!”

    That said, the computer in question is running very well indeed on XP … with the teenager’s main user locked down with no privileges, and the admin account password being known only to her mother😉

  14. openbytes says:

    lol…great advantages there…

    You’ve done a better job of selling Windows 7 than contextfree…bless him.

    BTW I do love your site! Heres the link for everyone else I recommend you visit:

    http://notnews.today.com/

  15. Richard says:

    Reasons to use Windows 7? What about …

    – It’s not Vista. Smaller footprint, better UI.
    – You have a ton of custom-developed software in your environment which uses Windows as the OS. You also have, over the past 20 years, built up a tech support department that knows a lot about Windows, and not so much about Linux. The investment that you stand to lose, or the prohibitive cost of retraining, is quite large.
    – Really good backwards compatibility.
    – Great responsiveness. I’ve had the pleasure of using it under load (2 VMs, a few IE+Firefox windows, 5+ Excel/Word windows open, and the usual array of IM client + Outlook + PuTTY + devtools + explorer windows + commandshells), and it’s snappy.

    As for “what can you do with it that you can’t do with Linux/XP”, it’s not about what you can do, it’s about what you can do more easily. Some things are easier on one OS than another; no OS is everything to everyone. If you are wondering whether to upgrade, then decide based on whether the OS would provide you with a more productive environment than you currently have.

  16. openbytes says:

    Quote “t’s not Vista. Smaller footprint, better UI.”

    That wasn’t the question. I agree for Vista users, but then a ZX81 would be an upgrade for what they have suffered IMO.

    Quote “You have a ton of custom-developed software in your environment which uses Windows as the OS. You also have, over the past 20 years, built up a tech support department that knows a lot about Windows, and not so much about Linux….”

    I won’t quote all but who say anything about tech depts? I am sure there are plenty of 3rd parties that would be as keen to offer Linux support as they would Windows…” ton of custom-developed software” yep and without going into specifics you cannot say it wouldn’t opperate under Wine…the question was aimed at the home user anyway, Ive said before Enterprise would be impossible to sum up in one article due to so many different requirements.

    Quote “Really good backwards compatibility.”

    With Vista maybe, although if XP is backwards comp is so great, why XPM mode at all?

    Quote “Great responsiveness. I’ve had the pleasure of using it under load…”

    What specs? We can argue about performance between our two systems all day. I’m sure it is responsive, but speaking as a ex-Windows user myself, I found a new definition of the word responsive when I moved to Linux.

    commandshells? I wouldn’t let the PR staff hear you say that word. The latest FUD on the net is that you have to use the command line permanently in Linux whereas you never even look at it in 7….its what people use to pimp Windows 7 and frighten people off Linux with rubbish about having to rely on the command line.

    Quote “no OS is everything to everyone.”
    Completely agree, although your answer of “not about what you can do, but do more easily” I challenge aswell. What can you do more easily than me which would be of relevance to the average consumer then? If we have established Windows 7 has no features available that cannot already be achieved, what can you do more easily?

    Quote “f you are wondering whether to upgrade, then decide based on whether the OS would provide you with a more productive environment than you currently have.”

    and completely agree, although on many fronts Windows 7 is not being represented properly (IMO) implication suggests its the second coming, evangelists will use any means to claim its so much better than alternatives.

    Its a shame nobody can actually pin down what these advantages are and the only “great things” are generalizations which are never explained, justified or proved.

    Quote “then decide based on whether the OS would provide you with a more productive environment than you currently have”

    So I presume then from that comment you would encourage users to try alternatives first before making any decision (or indeed sticking with XP) Afterall if you champion the idea of informed choice, you would welcome people “shopping around”

    1. Richard says:

      On backwards compatibility, I was referring to things like XPM. It’s an excellent use of virtualisation technology.

      On responsiveness, I’m not sure of the specs. It was a Lenovo T40x laptop, so I’m guessing it had a reasonably powerful Core2Duo with around 4Gb of RAM. Common specs for modern mid-to-high-end laptops, and mid-range desktops.

      On the tangent of commandshells, you should try PowerShell, it’s quite good. Takes you around 2 weeks to stop cursing at it, if you come from a /bin/sh environment, but once you get into it you wonder how you could ever have been satisfied with text mangling.

      We could argue about which features are important to which segment of which population, and what’s easier in GNOME vs KDE vs Win7, until the cows come home — and we’d still get nowhere. I don’t represent the “average” any more than you do. Suffice it to say that Microsoft’s got its new OS out there, and it’s quite a decent offering; whether individual consumers find it to their taste is up to them.

      If they want to try Linux or *BSD or OSX or HaikuOS or … well, whatever, then more power to them. And if they don’t want to, or if they want an easier upgrade path, then let them use Windows 7, and more power to them anyway.

  17. openbytes says:

    Im not sure what you meant with your comment about XPM…its hardly great IMO with no DX support, only open to purchasers of the more expensive editions of Windows AND requires a modern chipset (with quite hefty specs I believe) I’ll leave that there though because people can read MS’s own PR and see if XPM is an “excellent use of virtualisation technology.” based on what MS require you to own.

    Responsiveness can only be compared on a like for like basis, since Vista would probably run reasonably on a powerhouse, users with average did have a different experience…When I compare Vista to Linux I am comparing on EXACTLY THE SAME MACHINES..Years ago I had 1 running Linux, the rest Vista. Linux replaced Vista on all the machines in my home and thats my basis for my views on responsiveness.

    I wonder how your responsive PC would run Linux?

    We could argue “what’s easier in GNOME vs KDE vs Win7” if you were to give any examples of something easier. You haven’t so I cant. Users in the main are far more savvy than years gone by (afterall the workarounds and patches required when playing many PC games has educated them) When you look at the popularity of web based apps, the requirements of the average PC user and the packages they use, please just give me one example of something that is easier in Windows….or one thing Windows could offer that makes it worthwhile staying in the “proprietary loop” and not looking at free alternatives.

    Quote “or if they want an easier upgrade path, then let them use Windows 7”

    Hang on…We’ve heard about the Vista -> 7 upgrade path, whats the score with XP? Would you like to say or shall I? Since this article already stated that for Vista users who want to stay with Windows, 7 is a no brainer (and maybe grounds for complaint as IMO its what Vista should have been from day 1) XP is the issue here.

    Quote “If they want to try Linux or *BSD or OSX or HaikuOS or … well, whatever, then more power to them.”

    and I agree fully, thats why I put my experiences forward in the hope that they are balanced with others…freedom of choice. So in light of our agreement I would now like to know (in the interests of presenting a balanced view) just what is easier in Windows? and again, just what makes 7 a needed purchase for XP users?

    They are simple questions are they not? Just one example is all I am asking.

    1. Richard says:

      On XPM, yes, there’s no DX hardware acceleration. Frankly, it doesn’t matter in most cases: software rendering for 5-year-old games using a modern CPU will generally give you acceptable performance; if you don’t believe me, go ahead and run your own tests. You might not be able to run it at 1280×1024 without a bit of lag, but it’ll certainly run just fine. Backwards compatibility says that your apps will run OK, not that they will run at their best.

      As far as “hefty specs” are concerned, all that’s required is AMD-V or Intel-VT. Every K10 AMD CPU (and probably most Intel CPUs) made in the last 2 years has those features; it’s not something that you have to shop around for.

      On comparisons, I was assigned a Lenovo Thinkpad T400 at the time, and it ran Vista. I was able to make a very good comparison between the two, and Windows 7 was much more responsive. A friend of mine runs Linux on his T400; other than some graphics issues, it is more responsive than Vista, but not as good in that department as Windows 7.

      I suspect that the XP to 7 upgrade path will be quite easy. I see no reason for it to be more difficult than it was with Vista, and the XP to Vista upgrade path was smooth.

      No matter how many times you ask, I’m not going to get into the examples game. My time is too valuable to waste on inane back-and-forth my-Gimp-is-bigger-than-your-Photoshop comparisons. If you don’t believe my stated motivation, then feel free to believe that I’m running away from your “challenge”; it makes no difference to me. You can happily go your way believing that you have “won”, we’ll skip a few days of mindless chatter, and in the end the market will decide anyway — just as it always has done.

  18. openbytes says:

    So no DX, well I know of a few custom Enterprise apps that require DX, however since I beleive Wine/VM is a better way to go than an expensive version of 7 with XPM, I don’t think need to look at that any further. Its obviously of no interest to the home user and Enterprise will have to make their own decision on if its a useful feature.

    What interested me most was your first comment of:

    “I was referring to things like XPM. It’s an excellent use of virtualisation technology.”

    Followed by:

    “modern CPU will generally give you acceptable performance; if you don’t believe me, go ahead and run your own tests. You might not be able to run it at 1280×1024 without a bit of lag, but it’ll certainly run just fine.”

    “Just fine” has been the problem for a long time hasn’t it? Is “Just fine” acceptable? Was Vista “just fine”? and we’ve gone in 2 days (in respect of XPM) from it being excellent to acceptable performance and running just fine. Oh dear.

    Quote “made in the last 2 years has those features; it’s not something that you have to shop around for.”

    Agreed, however if we are talking Enterprise here (since I think we have established XPM is of little use to the home user) then is Enterprise in the position of having or indeed purchasing these specs for a company wide deployment? Since it appears so many Enterprise were reluctant even to upgrade to Vista, I would very much doubt a firm would want to make such a large purchase in addition with a 7 upgrade just to run something they already are in XP or other Windows version.

    Quote “I suspect that the XP to 7 upgrade path will be quite easy. ”

    So theres special offers available like there was Vista is there? Since 7 is essentialy Vista the upgrade at instal time could be done by means of an upgrade and not clean instal as in the case of XP…

    I’ll quickly mention Powershell as I forgot to before. In my opinion another example of MS re-inventing the wheel. Highlighted colourful scripting? WOW, I thought MS was keen to suggest that the command line was a thing of the past? I thought MS or at least its evangelists wanted to claim that Linux users needed it and thats why Windows is “better” now we hear MS has revamped it and make it “better” is that “better” as Vista was supposed to be?

    You make a comment about easy Windows, yet in Windows 7 we have established that for an XP user they are now having to learn a new layout/taskbar for their OS, we’ve got this powershell business and who knows what else? I thought MS evangelists want to tell you that Linux is a poor choice because you have to learn a new system? It appears thats what a XP to 7 user will be doing if they do decide to upgrade.

    Quote “I’m not going to get into the examples game. My time is too valuable to waste on inane back-and-forth my-Gimp-is-bigger-than-your-Photoshop comparisons.”

    Easy answer. In the time it took you to write that you could have simply said “Doing XXXX is simpler in Windows 7 because xxxxx” no, I put it to you that there is no compelling reason for upgrade. I put it to you that there is no compelling reason for people to stay with Windows anymore and I put it to you that whilst some people are going to be buying 7, they could have achieved the same for free with Linux.

    I never mentioned Gimp and either you have read somone elses comment on another blog and become confused or you are simply trying to fudge my counters.

    For the record I can’t stand GIMP. I find it difficult, unfriendly and not a patch on Paintshop Pro. You mention Photoshop which is not even made by Microsoft and I suggest if a user enjoys that package they should look over to the Wine compat page.

    Quote “If you don’t believe my stated motivation, then feel free to believe that I’m running away from your “challenge”; it makes no difference to me.”

    As far as I was aware this was a debate between two computer users with no financial interest in any platform, running away? no, if a Microsoft employee can come here (see previous articles) and not be able to offer anything more than you can then in terms of justification then I certainly wouldnt say you are running away.

    Quote “You can happily go your way believing that you have “won”

    Please don’t get sour. We are talking about software. The winner is the end user who gets value and the packages they actually need, that should be something we both strive for when putting our opinions on the net.

    Quote “My time is too valuable to waste”

    To be fair, you’ve spent quite a considerable amount of time posting here (which is good) if you time is valuable then why come here at all?

    Maybe if your time is valuable, you should have simply posted the advantage and justification of Windows 7 in the first place. It would have saved you alot of typing and to be fair was the only question I was asking.

    Its been great debating with you even though you appear to get bitter with your comment of “we’ll skip a few days of mindless chatter” which is a little immature since as far as I was concerned it was an interesting debate which YOU started here.

    I’ll let the readers decide and hopefully I will be able to print a few emails I’ve recieved in respect of XP users and their feelings of 7.

    So there you go readers, for Richard asking the questions about 7 is regarded as “mindless chatter” so just dig deep into your pockets and just buy Windows 7….does Richard believe that? who knows but it shows that as a consumer, expert or average user you should be asking the questions and not blindly following the PR.

    Win or loose? Richard this is a blog not a schoolyard. The only person who looses is someone who doesnt research their needs before purchase and the winner is the end user who gets the products they actually need.

    All the best.

    Goblin.

    1. Richard says:

      Home users may, or may not, get some benefit out of XPM; that’s neither for me nor you to say, but for each individual to decide. For DX apps, you’ll probably get OK performance; for non-DX apps, you’ll get excellent performance, which is quite nice.

      On the subject of enterprises, most of the reviews I’ve seen (Forbes, CIO, etc) are positive, and many have already made plans to go to 7. This was not the case with Vista.

      On Powershell, I suggest that you use it before you knock it; if you think that its primary advantage is “highlighted colourful scripting”, then you’re in for quite a surprise.

      The Windows 7 layout is very good; a lot of usability testing has gone into it, and it shows. But I doubt that you’d be convinced by my saying so, and I don’t care to debate what some mythical “average” user would find usable or not; so, let’s let the market decide.

      “I put it to you that there is no compelling reason for upgrade. I put it to you that there is no compelling reason for people to stay with Windows anymore and I put it to you that whilst some people are going to be buying 7, they could have achieved the same for free with Linux.”

      Great, good for you. I put it to you that most people don’t give two hoots about their OS, that the convenience of running Windows far outweighs any ancillary cost, and that it’s great to use software without having to worry about whether Wine will run it or mucking about with a VM. Now that we’ve mapped out our respective assertions, and I’ve already pointed out that I won’t be drawn into some ridiculous my-OS-is-bigger-than-your-OS sniping, shall we just let the matter rest?

  19. openbytes says:

    For someone who regarded this conversation as leading to mindless chatter I am surprised you returned.

    Quote “Home users may, or may not, get some benefit out of XPM; that’s neither for me nor you to say,”

    Completely agree and this is my observations and my opinion of XPM. Balance that with what Microsoft claims about it and hopefully users can reach an informed decision.

    Quote “For DX apps, you’ll probably get OK performance; for non-DX apps, you’ll get excellent performance, which is quite nice.”

    No. I think you will find XPM DOES NOT SUPPORT DX at all, please someone correct me if I am wrong there.

    Quote “On the subject of enterprises, most of the reviews I’ve seen (Forbes, CIO, etc) are positive, and many have already made plans to go to 7”

    I never gave any stats on who was thinking of upgrading…now you have mentioned it, what about the surveys carried out? The whole purpose of this article was aimed towards the XP home user (Ive made it clear many times to you) we cannot second guess either the intentions or the diverse requirements of Enterprise until they do or do not upgrade.

    Quote “On Powershell, I suggest that you use it before you knock it; if you think that its primary advantage is “highlighted colourful scripting”, then you’re in for quite a surprise.”

    That was not the point and I would hope you knew that. My point about colourful scripting was a flippant remark aimed at Microsoft re-inventing the wheel AND the evangelists stating that one of the great things of Windows over Linux was the LACK of a need of command line scripting. If thats the case why on earth is Microsoft revamping its CLI? Is this Powershell what you regard as easier? Are XP/Vista users going to leave the GUI in droves for Windows 7 CLI. In anycase have you seen 3rd part CLI tools? Again, back to my point of “what can Windows 7 achieve that cannot be done natively in XP or via 3rd party software…”

    Quote ” I put it to you that most people don’t give two hoots about their OS, ”

    Really? I must have been dreaming the plethora of bad comments that have flooded the net about Vista, the people who moved to Linux (like me) and the ones who bought a Mac. If you are right then is ANY XP user going to upgrade (in regards to not caring)? Its that type of attitude that is so wrong these days and probably why IE is loosing ground to FF, Office is loosing ground to OO the list goes on…(IMO) People do care Richard, experts, average users and beginners.

    Quote “and that it’s great to use software without having to worry about whether Wine will run it ”

    Well, Windows 7 users are going to have to worry if they can run the XP software…whats the difference..How many MS apps does the home user really need? We see alternative browsers taking the market share away from IE, we see OO offering at the very least everything the average user could need. Totem and similar offer exactly what media player does so what Microsoft software would a new Windows to Linux convert want to actually run….? The example you mentioned before isn’t even made by Microsoft and I think before you comment further you should see the compat charts with Wine first.

    Quote “t I won’t be drawn into some ridiculous my-OS-is-bigger-than-your-OS sniping, ”

    and neither will I, I was not. Please quote me or retract that. I never said Linux is better than Windows 7, what I am asking (and Its now getting silly the amount of times Im having to repeat this) what makes it worth the money? If there is some feature which makes the cost worthwhile over Linux (or any other alternative) please tell me.

    I am not sure what your direction is, you say you won’t be drawn into mindless chatter, you say your time is valuable yet you still return WITHOUT giving an answer to my questions. You have now typed a considerable amount since your “valuable time” comment, why won’t you simply answer the question and why are you making false accusations towards me, I hope you haven’t forgotten, this whole conversation is public.

    Quote “shall we just let the matter rest?”

    You are the one returning here (which you are more than welcome to do) but don’t seek to suggest that I’ve been forcing you or even baiting you to return. I’m trying to have a debate, what are you trying to do?

    1. Richard says:

      We seem to be in agreement on XPM: great for non-DX apps, probably OK using software rendering for DX apps.

      On Powershell, you seem to have an issue with people who say that Windows doesn’t need a CLI. I suggest that you take that up with those people, and not me. I have no desire to defend a point of view that I don’t share.

      On the rest of your points: OK, great. We have a difference of opinion, which is fine. I guess we’ll see how things turn out in 6 months.

      On trying to start a my-OS-is-bigger war, please stop. It was cute, but is now becoming genuinely annoying. The following statements:

      – What can you do more easily than me [in Windows] which would be of relevance to the average consumer then?
      – If we have established Windows 7 has no features available that cannot already be achieved, what can you do more easily?
      – nobody can actually pin down what these advantages [of Windows 7] are and the only “great things” are generalizations which are never explained, justified or proved.
      – I would now like to know (in the interests of presenting a balanced view) just what is easier in Windows
      – you should have simply posted the advantage and justification of Windows 7 in the first place
      – I put it to you that there is no compelling reason for people to stay with Windows anymore and I put it to you that whilst some people are going to be buying 7, they could have achieved the same for free with Linux.
      – what can Windows 7 achieve that cannot be done natively in XP or via 3rd party software…
      – what I am asking (and Its now getting silly the amount of times Im having to repeat this) what makes it [Windows] worth the money?
      – If there is some feature which makes the cost worthwhile over Linux (or any other alternative) please tell me.

      … now I’m sure that in some alternate universe, you are in fact NOT baiting me to get into a my-OS-is-bigger-than-your-OS contest. You can forget about getting a retraction.

      Let me make this crystal clear: I will not compare OS features on grounds as fuzzy as “usability”; one man’s ease-of-use is another man’s clutter. I will not claim that there’s some AmazingWhizzBang technical feature in one OS that doesn’t exist in any other particular OS, and that all (or most) users simply *must* have that feature; any such claim is trivially false. I will neither justify nor defend the purchasing decisions of complete strangers; whether something is “worth” an upgrade is up to them. In short, I will not get into a my-OS-is-bigger-than-yours contest.

      Now, are there any points that we have yet to discuss?

  20. openbytes says:

    Quote “We seem to be in agreement on XPM: great for non-DX apps, probably OK using software rendering for DX apps”

    I never said that. Infact the opposite, I suggest that should XP be required then the user should stay with it and not think XPM is the answer to everything. In my opinion its not.

    Software rendering for DX apps? are you serious? If XPM will have performance issues in terms of speed I would suggest then to remark DX rendering through software would further hamper that performance. How well would that run? Is XPM is able to accomodate that? I will need to look into that further but I would suggest software rendering is NOT a realistic option for anyone.

    Quote “On Powershell, you seem to have an issue with people who say that Windows doesn’t need a CLI. I suggest that you take that up with those people, and not me. I have no desire to defend a point of view that I don’t share.”

    Thats fair enough, I never said you did although you did imply it as an “advantage” which in my experience is completely at odds with the Windows 7 salespitch, the Windows platform direction and I’m sorry but flashy features and “bling” are not something I think many CLI users are that bothered with. I want a cli thats simple and I know. You need to remember we have survived this long with the CLI without the “mighty Microsoft” coming along and re-vamping it…thanks very much. Again if Powershell is interesting to XP users, maybe they should look at some of the free alternatives?

    Quote ” I guess we’ll see how things turn out in 6 months.”

    Why? What difference will it make? As you rightly say this is not a popularity contest. In respect of market penetration and OEM I suggest more than 6 months to get a realistic view on what people are saying…remember we are just coming out of a recession and after the Vista incident I think people are going to need alot of convincing.

    Quote ” now I’m sure that in some alternate universe, you are in fact NOT baiting me to get into a my-OS-is-bigger-than-your-OS contest. You can forget about getting a retraction.”

    Eh? You didn’t have to return, all I asked for was an answer…forget about a retraction? You are as rude as you are wrong.

    You still keep coming back though don’t you? You still wont answer the question (at least you seem to have finally understood we were talking about Home XP users…it only took about 4 times of telling you)

    Quote “Now, are there any points that we have yet to discuss?”

    Yes, answering the question I put in my article. That is all.

    Richard, with you behavior you have kindly proved the point I made in the original article. You mention fuzzy, yet you haven’t given anyone any compelling reason as to why Windows 7 is worth the cost. You’ve changed the subject, misunderstood (intentionally I believe) and you’ve skirted around an answer whilst at the same time saying your time is valuable. If you won’t answer the original question, why not answer this:

    Why do you keep coming back after your “valuable time” comments in older posts? Why are you being so rude? but most importantly why haven’t you been able to list any advantages?

    Richard, up until your childish behavior I was actually enjoying the debate, I suggest if you find anything annoying, you stop winding yourself up by returning. When you can act like an adult and with a little decency, you are more than welcome to return.

    1. Richard says:

      Mostly, I keep coming back because you keep on responding. Yes, my time is valuable — and that’s why you’ll notice that my posts are consistently shorter than yours.

      On XPM, perhaps I did misunderstand you, but I think you’ve got the right approach: try it with both DX and non-DX XP programs, and let us know the results. I don’t think they’ll be so bad, and you do; let’s settle it with benchmarks.

      You say: “yet you haven’t given anyone any compelling reason as to why Windows 7 is worth the cost” … and maybe that’s because you missed the part where I said ‘I will neither justify nor defend the purchasing decisions of complete strangers; whether something is “worth” an upgrade is up to them’.

      You also say: “most importantly why haven’t you been able to list any advantages?” … and maybe that’s because you also missed this: “I will not claim that there’s some AmazingWhizzBang technical feature in one OS that doesn’t exist in any other particular OS, and that all (or most) users simply *must* have that feature; any such claim is trivially false.”

      But hey, at least you haven’t asked me for a direct usability comparison this time.

      You asked for either quotes or a retraction; I provided 9 quotes, and no retraction. I fail to see the lack of decency in that. I’d say “feel free to throw in an few ad hominems on your way out”, but I see that you’ve already done that; c’est la vie. In fact, your (long) reply is notoriously short on … well … any new point at all. How about we call it quits, shake virtual hands, and go our separate ways?

      1. openbytes says:

        I’ll start if I may with:

        Quote “You asked for either quotes or a retraction; I provided 9 quotes, and no retraction. I fail to see the lack of decency in that.”

        So you didn’t use the word “cute” in reference to my comments, you didnt allege I was engaging in a mine is bigger than yours argument? These are the points I was highlighting. Maybe you forgot you typed them.

        Quote “Mostly, I keep coming back because you keep on responding. Yes, my time is valuable — and that’s why you’ll notice that my posts are consistently shorter than yours.”

        And that proves your time is valuable? Point is you still keep coming back for more, why?

        Quote “On XPM, perhaps I did misunderstand you, but I think you’ve got the right approach: try it with both DX and non-DX XP programs, and let us know the results.”

        How many times do I have to tell you. No DX support in XPM. You made the suggestion of software rendering, I said I didn’t know if XPM supported it and I would have to check it out. Regardless of if it does or doesn’t software rendering will be significantly slower and I don’t believe usuable for a GFX intensive app.

        Quote “nd maybe that’s because you missed the part where I said ‘I will neither justify nor defend the purchasing decisions of complete strangers”

        I didn’t miss that. So whats the point of having a discussion. This is basics, if you were to say Win7 does xxxxx and its worth it to me, then other readers could make decisions based off that. We don’t debate on behalf of strangers, we debate on behalf of ourselves.

        and I didn’t miss this either:

        “I will not claim that there’s some AmazingWhizzBang technical feature in one OS that doesn’t exist in any other ”

        the reason I dismissed it is that you use the word “one OS” and are not specific and if we are agreed then that one such feature doesnt exist, my question of why users should upgrade at all is even more valid, it would be a waste of money.

        Quote “But hey, at least you haven’t asked me for a direct usability comparison this time.”

        To be honest I had given up asking you anything since you don’t answer it.

        Quote “How about we call it quits, shake virtual hands, and go our separate ways?”

        You are free to leave whenever you like. My search will go on for justification of users buying into a Windows 7 upgrade.

        Shake virtual hands? There was never a problem as far as I was concerned until your point tried to belittle. At the end of the day we are talking about software, I certainly didn’t take anything personally.

  21. openbytes says:

    Right….

    Im off out now…Richard if by chance you do return..I’ll be more than happy to respond to you when I get back home.

    In the meantime, since Richard cant or won’t mention these advantages of Windows 7, can anyone else?

  22. Chips B Malroy says:

    There is only a couple of clear advantages I can see with Windows Seven, as opposed to XP. One is if you buy a new laptop, and there are no XP drivers for it. Second is a clear advantage to the World’s Richest Man, who is also the largest stockholder and Chairman of the Board to Microsoft, as he will get even richer. For a guy that seems to want to give it away, for supposedly worthy causes, he can’t seem to give it away fast enough to stop being the wealthiest human being on the face of the planet. Odd, isn’t it?

    15 gig for the VM feature in Windows Seven if you buy the more expensive version???? What are they drinking in Redmond these days? Or more important, what are they adding in this feature that XP did not have before? More DRM anyone? XP only took 2 gig of space to install, and then you could turn off system restore and set the trash can to 0%, which means the xp install was only 1400mb, and yet MS needs 15 gig? Thats whats wrong with this company, its software is bloated beyond belief.

    I can run XP in Linux with Virtualbox (from Sun, and its free, I don’t need to purchase an upgrade) and get better DX support than this bloatware VM from MS that one has to pay for. What a joke.

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