//
you're reading...
News

A GIMP replacement? – Popping down the pub for a “Pinta” with Novell?

Fancy a Pinta? Whats your poison? - This round is on Novell. Lets forget "patent trap" allegations and look at who really uses Mono...

There has been talk for some time regarding the removal of the default GIMP packaging from Ubuntu, now as Gnome DE seems to move more in a Mono direction, could it be that Ubuntu (and others) will go for a Mono app replacement?

Ladies and gentlemen meet Pinta, no, not the type you buy down your local pub, this type of poison is a Mono app aimed at being a “clone” of Paint.net for Linux and a potential replacement for GIMP?  Now normally I would be the first to support an opensource project.  If Pinta had been the culmination of a “bedroom coder” who was keen to release his/her work to the public I would have supported it fully.  But the reality is not like that.

I’ve often made the point that if Mono is so great, where is the killer app for it?  Where is the app that everyone MUST have?  Whatever coders think about Mono and whatever they create, its the end-user who will decide on its future and I challenge anyone to show me a FOSS project that continues to run when nobody wants to use it.

Over at http://jpobst.blogspot.com/2010/02/over-holiday-break-i-stumbled-upon-this.html where the Pinta project has a blog, the authors description says:

…I’m Jonathan Pobst and I am a full-time open source hacker for Novell. I work on Mono, specifically on Mono Tools for Visual Studio.

and he certainly has “great” aspirations for this software.  Full time open source hacker?  You mean employee then?  Implying that he is inspired by Paint.net.  Inspired by Paint.net eh?…..moving swiftly on….

and not so obvious (in fact on the official site) is a comment about a topic which many people have remarked on before – Mono bloat, this comment was found in the FAQ in relation to the question “Pinta memory usage keeps growing” (and maybe a reminder to many of experiences of Microsoft products:

This is caused by keeping around infinite levels of Undo. In future versions, this will be mitigated

Im sure….it will be better next time….I would expect then that 10.04 Lucid NBR won’t even consider Pinta then since its ethos seems primarily to remove excess for a netbook deployment?  You can visit the official page of Pinta here: http://pinta-project.com/

I digress, forgetting that I have opinions on Mono, why should I not champion this product?  Simply because its being made by a Novell employee and hardly an enthusiast/impartial/bedroom coder.  When I asked previously about killer apps and Mono, it appears that the people trying to make them are the very people trying to push Mono.  Where is the independent coder support here?  As I see it, the popular packages that people want are NOT made with Mono and maybe Novell have realized that our “traditional” and respected developers are not going to touch it?

If I had seen a mass of Mono apps being released to “hungry” end users I may have seen the need, but when Novell is seemingly trying to create its own killer apps to promote its own implementation of a Microsoft framework then I really can’t see the point of this “gift to the world”.

In the case of Mono and its associated “wares” the most important person is not the coder(s) behind the projects, but the end-user – YOU.  The success or failure of such projects will solely depend on if they are taken up by the “average desktop user” who outnumber enterprise/advocates/coders many times over.  Ask yourself did you move to Linux for a “FOSS” implementation of a Microsoft technology which is headed up by Microsoft MVP Mr De Icazza or did you (like me) move because you were tired of inhibiting licenses, crashes, bloated software and the blame being placed at the feet of anyone but Microsoft? Were you fed up of the ethos of “everything has a price” or the takeaway menu style purchasing of Microsoft products? – I’ll let you decide.

In the meantime, if you think Microsoft want’s to play nicely with FOSS, lets remind ourselves of comments made by Microsoft.  But before we do that we only have to cast our minds back a few months to the allegations against our “FOSS friendly” Microsoft when it was claimed that they had stolen code from another project – Plurk.  You can read more about that here.

Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches,

Steve Ballmer – Microsoft CEO.  Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_cancer/

Yet Linux sort of springs organically from the earth. And it had, you know, the characteristics of communism….

Steve Ballmer – Microsoft CEO. Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/07/31/ms_ballmer_linux_is_communism/

Now lets have some comments from Mr De Icaza from the Mono team and the people who want you to use Mono and its related apps.  If you look back on Mr De Icaza’s Twitter and blog, you can see he does praise Microsoft technologies:

Why I am uber-super-fascinated by Silverlight 4

Mr De Icaza – Mono team.  Source: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Nov-23.html

Silverlight 4 Beta available now at http://silverlight.net, will ship first half of 2010. w00t!

Mr De Icaza – Mono team.  Source: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Nov-23.html

and lets not forget Mr De Icaza’s comment:

Thanks to everyone that participated in the campaign to nominate me for a C# MVP award

Conclusions

Mr De Icaza from what I have seen is a very nice chap and the purpose of this article is not an attack or critism of Mr De Icaza.  He has his agenda (whatever that is) and he has his own opinions/views.   The Mono framework, Moonlight and any associated wares are there for people to choose if they wish.

Previously I said that I had found GIMP to have a rather steep learning curve and something that I could not justify learning for the limited need of a GFX app that I have.  That being said, I’d rather learn GIMP than have Pinta or similar package on my system.  Time will tell if the “average user” agrees or not, however in the absence of a killer app I think Mono will continue to be promoted by those who have a vested interest in it and largely ignored by mainstream app developers and if thats the case, should any distro have Mono packaged as default in the future?

Goblin – bytes4free@googlemail.com

About these ads

About Tim Sparrow

Online tech writer, novelist/author of sci-fi literature and co-host of the TechBytes Show! I believe in multi-culturism & diversity. Luton Town FC supporter.

Discussion

49 thoughts on “A GIMP replacement? – Popping down the pub for a “Pinta” with Novell?

  1. GIMP is not particularly hard to learn. What is hard to learn is how to edit images to high quality.

    When I’d learnt that first – on Photoshop 2.5 – then GIMP was incredibly easy.

    No application can think for you.

    Posted by David Gerard | February 8, 2010, 7:56 pm
  2. True. It was more to do with my basic needs being met with online apps. Working my way around a “new” GUI is something I never really had the need to do and if I required more advanced features then of course GIMP would be the choice.

    I completely agree that no app can think for you. Maybe in future I will have the need (and Im sure to regular GFX app users GIMP is simple) but its more a case of “I havent used it properly so I need to learn”

    ****ADDITIONAL******

    If you are like me and need to brush up (no pun intended) on your GFX skills and using GIMP, theres are great article linked over on Tuxmachines:

    http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/43035

    Posted by openbytes | February 8, 2010, 8:05 pm
  3. You have to wonder. Are there no hot Mono apps because Mono isn’t capable of producing hot apps, or are there no hot Mono apps because hot programmers won’t use it?

    I think it’s because Mono isn’t capable of producing hot apps. Whatever you say about Miguel, he’s a capable programmer, and if he hasn’t been able to produce a hot app with Mono, I don’t think it can be done.

    And there is proof of this. Microsoft was supposed to be re-writing Windows in 100% C# code, and apparently they weren’t able to do so, and as a result Vista and 7 ended up partly coded in C#, and partly coded in C/C++. Since Mono is a clone of .NET the C# environment, it inherits the positives and negatives of .NET.

    I don’t know if you remember my comment a while back that a lot of people at Microsoft are scared stiff of Miguel. I have friends in low places, and it’s true. He managed to reverse engineer Mono from .NET with far less than a tenth of the staff Microsoft used to develop .NET. If Miguel decides to go in his own direction in developing Mono, it could become a serious threat to Microsoft as a cross-platform programming language. Microsoft knows this, and also knows that Miguel and his team are far more efficient than the team at Microsoft. If they had to play catch up they’ve never manage.

    Posted by The Mad Hatter | February 9, 2010, 5:21 am
    • Quote “Are there no hot Mono apps because Mono isn’t capable of producing hot apps, or are there no hot Mono apps because hot programmers won’t use it?”

      I’d say its a bit of both. If we look at how Mono is touted and its “simple creation” of apps and in the process we see a performance issue.

      Mono is a poorer second cousin of .net and is that a good thing for Linux at present time since an app developer who loved .net so much would stick with the “superior” version over on Redmonds platform. Look at how far Linux/FOSS has come, how much C# has been involved in Linux to date to make it was it is now?

      Thanks for the post. In answer to the point about Mono going in Mr De Icaza’s own direction I would like to comment for the benefit of the user below who accuses me of trolling on my own blog:

      I would have the same opinion of Mono regardless of its basis. If Mono was completely unique and not based off anything from Microsoft I would say the same. There still would be no killer app and in my opinion its being pushed at the expense of respected, decent software, in this case Gimp. UNR has already rumoured OO is for the chop and in the case of 10.04 what else is going to be chopped in favor of Mono apps?

      Mad Hatter, its always a pleasure when you comment!

      Kind regards
      Goblin.

      Posted by openbytes | February 9, 2010, 11:25 am
  4. I guess you’d be okay with this program if it were written in some other language (say, python?). So it’s not so much the program that you have a problem with, but the language?

    Btw… ”’Mono bloat, this comment was found in the FAQ in relation to the question “Pinta memory usage keeps growing” (and maybe a reminder to many of experiences of Microsoft products:

    This is caused by keeping around infinite levels of Undo. In future versions, this will be mitigated”’

    ^^^ “caused by keeping around infinite levels of Undo” –a bug in how the program was coded– not “Mono bloat”.

    I’ll take everything else you said as opinion, since it pretty much is. I don’t much care for Mono programs either, because I haven’t come across one that really works well, but I don’t see a problem with using programs written in Mono if they’re available. Microsoft’s not going to go after the users, if they go after anyone, will they? I say, let the Novell programmers do what they want and if they make something useful, then use it!

    (p.s. comment preview would be appreciated. ^.^ )

    Posted by Ben | February 9, 2010, 7:16 am
    • Quote “I guess you’d be okay with this program if it were written in some other language (say, python?).”

      Depends on the app. The point was the Mono framework getting favor when, there is no killer app from it and (in the case of Pinta) its hardly an indi dev using it.

      Pinta is not a killer app anyway and certainly with reports of RAM eating its nowhere near. If I developed my own framework which no killer app was dependent on, should it be bolted onto a distro merely because someone may in the future? and what if there were questions regarding the performance of my framework and that which it was based off? – I’ll let you decide.

      I’ll accept your correct of Mono bloat although the point was shown to highlight a critisism of the Mono framework producing bloated software which does not perform.

      Quote “but I don’t see a problem with using programs written in Mono if they’re available”

      Neither do I, the point is there is not. As I say, why are we being told Mono is good for us and why in the absence of such an app do we have to have it default packaged?

      Quote “I’ll take everything else you said as opinion, since it pretty much is.”

      Its not “pretty much” my opinion it IS my opinion and I don’t seek to suggest otherwise, infact recently I was critisized for using too many (IMO’s) in my text and it was stated to me that I need not or should not do it.

      Quote “I say, let the Novell programmers do what they want and if they make something useful, then use it!”

      and I’d completely agree, although this point was made at the exclusion of GIMP a respected and established program and looks at what COULD be replaced when Ubuntu/Gnome seem to be heading in the direction of a greater dependency on Mono.

      By the way, Im not alone in this. Whilst I don’t use Ubuntu on my main rig, if memory serves a poll on Ubuntu’s own forums had users wanting GIMP to remain….theres another article there though since Ive had a conversation on that very subject with Jono Bacon.

      Posted by openbytes | February 9, 2010, 11:17 am
      • “Its not “pretty much” my opinion it IS my opinion and I don’t seek to suggest otherwise, infact recently I was critisized for using too many (IMO’s) in my text and it was stated to me that I need not or should not do it.”

        I should have been more explicit; I meant everything else is pretty much opinion, and I respect it. I didn’t mean that it was partially your opinion, if that’s what you thought.

        Just two other notes: I didn’t say it was a killer app; it still has a long way to go, obviously. And I don’t think it’ll be replacing Gimp either, since they don’t target the same users. I think it does have potential to become a good application, just like Paint.net, but that doesn’t mean I think it should replace Gimp.

        Thanks for the reply. ^.^

        Posted by Ben | February 9, 2010, 7:39 pm
  5. Who cares if it comes from a Novell employee or not?
    The point is that there was a need for such a program for Linux (and it works on Windows and OS X, too), and that this guy came with it first.
    Of course, there are better chances that an employee will come up with stuff like that than a hobbyist programmer, as he’d paid for it and therefore doesn’t need to find spare time to work on it. Besides, the application is under a quite liberal licence, which is all that *should* matter.

    Anyway, you seem proud to point out a known, publicly detailed bug in the first version (0.1) of a new application, implying it’s some kind of Mono issue on top of it. Congrats, A+ trolling.

    Posted by Stifu | February 9, 2010, 7:47 am
    • Quote “Who cares if it comes from a Novell employee or not?”

      Nobody should except for the part where I make the point about the “killer app” being absent from the Mono framework and in order for Mono to be viable developers have to want to use it. By developers I mean independent ones not those involved with an interest in it being used.

      Quote “Anyway, you seem proud to point out a known,”

      No Im not, Im further showing the allegation made by people who have used it when they make comments about footprint/performance of a Mono binary.

      Quote “Congrats, A+ trolling.”

      Er right, putting MY opinions on MY blog (which you comment on voluntarily)

      Congrats, A+ dishonest representation of me and whilst accusations are being thrown, fancy telling us who you got permission from to distribute copyrighted material on your site? namely emu roms?

      FYI your comment of “By the way, according to the law (in case anyone respects it) you don’t have the right to have ROMs unless you own the original games… and then again.” does not absolve you of legal responsibility……didn’t work for the Piratebay it won’t work for you.

      Posted by openbytes | February 9, 2010, 11:07 am
      • Oh oh, I almost missed the personal attack slipped in afterward an edit. Let’s go off topic then. To be honest, I don’t feel like the rest of your post is even worth debating (using just-released alpha-quality software as a “proof” for supposedly common Mono performance issues, seriously?), so I’ll just skip it.

        Everything that follows is totally off topic, so those who don’t have time to waste may want to ignore it.

        About my web site… That part of my site is nearly 10-year old and is no longer updated, so I really don’t care. The whole site is about to be dumped soon, to be replaced with a new one that better represents my current hobbies and interests, for what it’s worth.
        Anyway, For your information, all the emulators proposed there are free and legal.
        The only ROMs proposed are old handheld games (NeoGeo Pocket) that are long gone from the market and not sold anymore, and that will only interest a few hardcore gamers, or nostalgic collectors. You could argue distributing these games may still be technically illegal, but I like to think of it more as a video game museum than mere piracy. The concerned company (SNK, who went bankrupt then somehow got back up, more or less) doesn’t look like it’ll make any more money on these games. Considering how dated these games look, they wouldn’t even work as mobile phone game compilations. And before their bankrupcy is blamed on me and my evil pirate site that no one visits, I bought over 70 of the games I propose on my site. So I support companies I like.

        Anyway, still waiting for lawyers to invade my home. And for Microsoft to rape my own little C# Mono-compatible app, too.

        Posted by Stifu | February 9, 2010, 11:34 pm
  6. It’s still not a stable platform for writing real applications. Anyone writing internal software for a company wouldn’t risk it, even if it had the capabilities they needed – which it usually wouldn’t. And anyone wanting to write free software has numerous *mature* platforms to choose from, without any of the negative political connotations of using ‘the enemy’s design. This applies equally to .NET too, although plenty of people use it anyway.

    And at the other end of the scale, those wanting ‘simple easy to use’ languages have tons of ‘simpler, easier to use’ languages to choose from instead.

    And unlike many of these, no developer can assume universal availability. Unlike M$, they can’t just force everyone to install it. Although the push through GNOME is pretty obviously a deliberate attempt to try to. That the `flag-ship’ product that let them force mono into GNOME and many desktop distributions was a farcical ‘post-it note’ application is quite cringworthingly embarrassing. And a perfect example of how marketing can triumph over merit, even in the so-called ‘open source world’.

    “Ask yourself did you move to Linux for a “FOSS” implementation of a Microsoft technology which is headed up by Microsoft MVP Mr De Icazza or did you (like me) move because you were tired of inhibiting licenses, crashes, bloated software and the blame being placed at the feet of anyone but Microsoft?”

    I skipped it entirely, went straight from AmigaOS to GNU! I think I was fortunate. 4 years ago I started working on a .NET project (not mono) and was appalled at the immaturity and paucity of the platform as a whole, and surprised at the whole ‘pay for everything’ attitude that permeates that world. It’s like java without all the important bits included (but you can probably buy it somewhere from dodgy one-man ‘isv’), and missing most of the documentation.

    Posted by Michael | February 9, 2010, 12:50 pm
  7. Back when .NET 1.0 first came out, I had need of an application for Windows. I went to a local store, and picked up a package that said it would do what I wanted. And it did. Barely. After I downloaded the .NET ‘framework’ from Microsoft’s site.

    Since I don’t run Windows anymore, I’m not up to date on where .NET has gone since then, however at the time it was a disaster compared to Visual C++/Visual Basic.

    Going back to Mono, there are only a few Mono applications which aren’t written by Novell staff. This lack of take up of Mono indicates to me that it doesn’t do what programmers want. If it did, more people would use it, and we’d see more applications.

    Wonder what Verofakto will think of this, he seems to have disappeared back in November.

    Oh, and our friend Lefty told me that he was never a Mono fan, and that I wouldn’t find anything proving that he is. I didn’t bother looking, I’m far enough behind on my own projects as it is :)

    Posted by The Mad Hatter | February 9, 2010, 4:35 pm
    • Or maybe it’s simply the FUD that’s turning some people away from Mono, who knows.

      By the way, if Mono isn’t popular, could you name some modern languages (ie: not C or C++) and/or frameworks for Linux that are popular, and what killer apps were made with them? I’m curious.

      Posted by Stifu | February 9, 2010, 8:05 pm
  8. @David Gerard: you may have missed the part about killer app examples? I can’t think of a single Java killer app. If anyone is tempted to answer Eclipse or NetBeans, please be serious.

    Oh, and in my world, Java, although very present in the industry, doesn’t really dominate it, and is losing shares to .NET as time passes. A quick Google search confirmed the impression I’ve had as a developer over the last few years.
    .NET may be heavily inspired on Java, but having used both for a while, Java is clearly the one that seems “cheap” to me. To each his own.

    Posted by Stifu | February 9, 2010, 10:27 pm
    • There’s nothing on the desktop, because frameworks like Java and .NET and Mono are too damn fat for killer desktop apps.

      Look at Gnote versus Tomboy. Same app, just translate to C++ and suddenly it’s ridiculously smaller and faster. And has replaced Tomboy in Fedora.

      Posted by David Gerard | February 9, 2010, 10:29 pm
      • Then isn’t it hypocritical or lame to bash Mono for not having killer apps on the desktop (or not many of them), if Java is in the same boat (or even in a worse situation)?

        “This lack of take up of Java indicates to me that it doesn’t do what programmers want. If it did, more people would use it, and we’d see more applications.”

        *rolls eyes*

        Yeah, I know you’re not the one who said that, but my point remains, especially since I keep reading the same BS everywhere.

        While we’re commenting on this article, I have to say Paint.NET is a killer app for me, and certainly does a good job at hiding the fatness of the .NET framework. So I welcome Pinta with open arms, and wish it success.

        Posted by Stifu | February 9, 2010, 10:43 pm
  9. Firstly Stifu let me address something:

    Quote “Oh oh, I almost missed the personal attack slipped in afterward an edit. Let’s go off topic then. To be honest, I don’t feel like the rest of your post is even worth debating ”

    Really? Who accused me of trolling on my own blog? Not a personal attack? lol…and lets face it, you do offer copyrighted material on your site with a disclaimer of sorts that does nothing to remove your legal responsibility….

    You came here. You called me a troller on my own blog….insults? Don’t make me laugh…what I said was fact. You are infringing copyright on your site, thats not an opinion, its a fact.

    Quote “Everything that follows is totally off topic, so those who don’t have time to waste may want to ignore it.”

    Good answer, you don’t have to debate then.

    Quote “all the emulators proposed there are free and legal.”

    Im not talking about the emulators. Im talking of the snapshot images of copyrighted material

    Quote “The only ROMs proposed are old handheld games (NeoGeo Pocket) that are long gone from the market and not sold anymore”

    Learn about copyright and then come back. You don’t understand….or maybe you do….thats why you have a disclaimer.

    Quote “You could argue distributing these games may still be technically illegal”

    No I don’t, read my reply properly and come back. I ask you if you have permission. I’ll remind you what I say since understanding copyright, reading and remembering do not seem to be one of your skills:

    “fancy telling us who you got permission from to distribute copyrighted material on your site? namely emu roms?”

    I then went on to suggest that if your “disclaimer” was an attempt to remove resposibility from yourself, it wouldn’t work.

    Moving on….

    Quote “Then isn’t it hypocritical or lame to bash Mono for not having killer apps on the desktop ”

    Im not bashing Mono for not having killer apps, I am asking what is the point of it if it doesnt and why is Mono seen as desirable when its a poorer (IMO) cousin of .net?

    If I wanted to “bash” Mono I could have listed the patent worries, …I didn’t as I wanted to keep the conversation at a more fundamental level = what exactly justifies it? and especially if traditional, respected and useful apps get removed in favor of its associated warez…..and lurking underneath that its based on a Microsoft tech and Id hazard a guess that many many Linux users moved over in the home to get away from experiences of Microsoft technologies.

    I’ll leave you to work out what exactly it is you are arguing as your “points” put me in mind of a Windows appologist, who when challeged over recent exploits in Windows replied by saying….”Well it happens to other platforms”…..

    I am interested in your final comment. So you agree .Net and ergo Mono is “fat”? and are you suggesting that you are a Windows user? If so do you dual boot and if not, what on earth is your experience of the Linux platform?

    I’ll end on….

    Quote “Yeah, I know you’re not the one who said that, but my point remains, especially since I keep reading the same BS everywhere.”

    There you go folks, if you read an opinion that is shared by many people IT HAS TO BE false…..lol.
    Tell me Stifu is this another one of your concepts like “self trolling”?

    Wow. Im lucky you visit….keep all this wrong people with their opinions correct.

    Stifu, much as I trust the words of a copyright infringer who can’t understand the concept of copyright, I think I will keep my opinions and a word of advise, if you are going to try to defend the .Net framework, its probably best not to call it “fat”…

    Regards
    Goblin

    Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 12:12 am
    • “Really? Who accused me of trolling on my own blog?”
      The fact it’s your own blog doesn’t make it any less trolling. Essentially, it’s trolling because it’s blind bashing, regardless of where it’s posted.

      “lets face it, you do offer copyrighted material on your site with a disclaimer of sorts that does nothing to remove your legal responsibility”
      I know that, it’s more like a joke. It’s alright if it flies over some people’s head.

      “I am interested in your final comment. So you agree .Net and ergo Mono is “fat”?”
      Not especially. Sure, it’s “fatter” than older technologies (but not as much as Java overall, from my experience), and I was highlighting the fact that nicely-coded .NET apps can be fast and lightweight. High speed or low memory use aren’t the main selling points for .NET though, there are other points to consider, such as development and maintenance time / cost, or code readability.

      “and are you suggesting that you are a Windows user?”
      I am. I’m a .NET developer, and have both Windows and openSUSE on my comp.

      “There you go folks, if you read an opinion that is shared by many people IT HAS TO BE false…..lol.”
      It’s the other way around: the fact many people are wrong doesn’t make them right. Just a sheep / bandwagon effect. Someone makes a point somewhere, people read it and are like “yeah he’s right”, and then preach on. That’s the way I see it.

      “if you are going to try to defend the .Net framework, its probably best not to call it “fat”…”
      I was simply rewording what he said. Maybe I should have added quotes around “fatness”? *shrugs*
      I was replying to someone, you know, it’s not like I just popped up out of nowhere saying “Hey guys, you know about this awesome fat technology over there? So blubbery, I love it!”.

      Posted by Stifu | February 10, 2010, 7:22 am
      • Quote “Really? Who accused me of trolling on my own blog?”

        Grow up. Let me remind you what YOU said:

        “Congrats, A+ trolling.”

        On my own blog? Trolling? – Learn the definition then don’t comment if you don’t want to read it.

        Quote “I know that, it’s more like a joke.”

        Ah the joke…..yes I often see that one when people can’t argue….have you ever considered a career on TV? You’re quite the comedian !?

        Quote “Sure, it’s “fatter” than older technologies (but not as much as Java overall, from my experience), and I was highlighting the fact that nicely-coded .NET apps can be fast and lightweight. ”

        lol. But the framework (and subsequent runtimes) are fat? . Don’t take up advocacy. Youre not good at it.

        Quote “I am. I’m a .NET developer, and have both Windows and openSUSE on my comp.”

        That’s funny, by looking at your site I thought you had written one simple rom editor and used RPG maker. I’m sure you could teach David Braben a thing or two..!?! LOL.

        Quote “t’s the other way around: the fact many people are wrong doesn’t make them right.”

        the fact that you don’t know (or even researched) who is actually commenting here is actually quite insulting to them….. These are not RPGmaker/.net fanboys.

        Quote “I just popped up out of nowhere ”

        Er you did, you came here clueless or with a disregard of copyright, called me a troll on my own blog and then went on to try and defend .net…badly I may add. But worse than that you brought liar Richard out of the woodwork…

        Well done.

        Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 8:44 pm
  10. Not withstanding anymore new concepts from Stifu, lets look at another point of note Gimp going from Ubuntu? Mono favored? How about this statement on the Pinta site:

    “Pinta is a drawing/editing program modeled after Paint.NET. It’s goal is to provide a simplified alternative to GIMP for casual users. It is currently early in development.”

    Alternative to Gimp? really? and who thinks this? the creators? Canonical? Novell? What a coo for Novell if Canonical adopts an app written in its framework by one of its employees.

    Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 1:23 am
  11. NOTE FROM OPENBYTES – RICHARD, THE EXPOSED LIAR HAS RETURNED TO OPENBYTES IF YOU ARE A NEW READER AND NOT SEEN RICHARDS PREVIOUS DISHONESTY, IT IS WELL DOCUMENTED HERE.

    Classic trollery from the Goblin, made more amusing by the fact that he thinks that if it’s on his blog, then it’s not trolling!

    Let’s see, …

    – using outdated “evidence” (like 10-year-old quotes from Steve Ballmer): CHECK

    – plenty of weasel words (“this type of poison”? Careful, Goblin, mustn’t make the bias too obvious!): CHECK

    – ridiculous, unanswerable challenges (“Where is the app everyone MUST have?” … that doesn’t exist, for any language): CHECK

    – guilt-by-association (“Microsoft technology which is headed up by Microsoft MVP Mr De Icazza” … hey, nice smear campaign, but you need to learn to spell your target’s name correctly, it’s “Miguel de Icaza”): CHECK

    – plenty of personal attacks, off-topic insults and innuendos for anyone who dares to disagree (but I’m sure that stifu doesn’t mind being called a thief … oh wait you didn’t SAY it, you just implied it repeatedly, so that must make it all OK): CHECK

    – sweeping assertions without any evidence whatsoever (“our “traditional” and respected developers are not going to touch it” … you speak for the diverse Linux dev community, do you? You’re not even a developer yourself!): CHECK

    I could go on, there are plenty of other trollish hallmarks, but why bother? It’s pretty plain that your peanut gallery (hi David Gerard! and Chips B. Malroy! and The Mad Hatter! and various BN-disciples!) will gladly swallow anything that you throw out, and those of us who don’t fall into line with your views are insulted until we go away (you call that “debate”, which means that you don’t have a clue as to the meaning of that word). And whenever you’re called to produce facts to back up what you say, it’ll be a case of “Oh it’s just my opinion” — so how is your supposed criticism to be taken as any more valuable than some 12-year-old emo-teen’s rant about Avril Lavigne?

    Being a troll, of course, you’ll feel compelled to reply to this with plenty of personal attacks. Resist the temptation, Goblin! There’s no need to reply: if what I say isn’t true, then all of your readers will be laughing at me right now; and if what I say is true, well, I guess they’ll be laughing with me, at you.

    Posted by Richard | February 10, 2010, 4:46 am
    • Hey Richard! Long time no lies? eh?

      I wondered if you would slither onto my site again and this time you’ve come to defend .net/rpgmaker fanboy and his comments about me being able to troll my own blog. Advice Richard – Don’t comment if you believe I am “self trolling” here.

      Yet again Richard you can’t make a single post here without telling lies…let me remind you:

      Qoute “but I’m sure that stifu doesn’t mind being called a thief ”

      Liar (again) Regular readers here (of which there are nearly 1000 UIP’s every day now) will notice that whenever Richard comments I have to use the word liar which highlighting his text.

      I’ll entertain the readers Richard, but stop with the lies otherwise you will get your disclaimer back.

      Quote “our “traditional” and respected developers are not going to touch it”

      Name the killer app. Name a dev that we will all know and use their software. Do that Richard, lets hear who writes the killer apps that require Mono.

      Quote “I could go on”

      You certainly could, why don’t you and as usual don’t let silly notions like being honest get in the way.

      Quote ” The Mad Hatter! and various BN-disciples!) will gladly swallow anything that you throw out,”

      Liar again, check over the last few post, we have differences in many opinions. Mad hatter even made his own blog entry regarding what I missed out. As I say, Liar again.

      Quote “Being a troll, of course, you’ll feel compelled to reply to this with plenty of personal attacks. ”

      Good try to prevent a response or at least try to cheapen it. I could say why would you come here, instead I would just like to say you are a proved liar time and time again….is it Richard or Amicus Curious? or one of your other numerous nyms _Mutex_?
      Please feel free to deny.

      Quote “then all of your readers will be laughing at me right now”

      Nobodies laughing at you Richard, you have not posted anything in the least bit funny, just dishonest.

      Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 8:54 pm
      • NOTE FROM OPENBYTES – RICHARD, THE EXPOSED LIAR HAS RETURNED TO OPENBYTES IF YOU ARE A NEW READER AND NOT SEEN RICHARDS PREVIOUS DISHONESTY, IT IS WELL DOCUMENTED HERE.

        Richard says:

        “Being a troll, of course, you’ll feel compelled to reply to this with plenty of personal attacks.”

        Well done :). Readers, I think the point has been well proven …

        MSG From Goblin (Openbytes) since the thread doesn’t allow that many replies.
        Richard, you come here evertime and tell lies. I prove your comments to be lies, call you a liar and then you disapear. Theres no denial because people can read what you put. Stifu was given the respect he/she gave me as they came here and without provocation (and without even engaging me in conversation first) said “Congratulations A+ Trolling” from there on in I had little respect for them and if they are not prepared to debate properly then yes, their “issues” will be brought to the fore.

        You on the other hand simply come here to tell lies. Thats why you had a message put on your comments before and thats why you have it now. The purpose of the message is to warn readers who are new, who have never seen your dishonest posts before. You have had one benefit though with your latest visit, instead of putting a warning on your lie telling, Im going to make a page which documents your previous visits. That way people can see for themselves the “Richard” handle in action.

        When is Amicus Curious returning Richard? I look forward to it and I hope to finish your own special page very shortly.

        Kind regards
        Goblin

        Posted by Richard | February 11, 2010, 3:57 am
  12. I could go on, there are plenty of other trollish hallmarks, but why bother? It’s pretty plain that your peanut gallery (hi David Gerard! and Chips B. Malroy! and The Mad Hatter! and various BN-disciples!) will gladly swallow anything that you throw out, and those of us who don’t fall into line with your views are insulted until we go away (you call that “debate”, which means that you don’t have a clue as to the meaning of that word).

    Peanut Gallery? I am wounded, wounded unto death by that remark, and feel the need to point out one inaccuracy. At 20 Stone I am not a peanut.

    I’ve spent some time considering the appropriate response, and I think that we will tie you to a chair, and force you to watch the Lawrence Welk show for 48 hours straight, after which you should be in a catatonic state, and we can then indoctrinate you in the joys of hardcore programming. At the end of that you’ll have a good set of job skills, and an addiction to Jolt Cola.

    Posted by The Mad Hatter | February 10, 2010, 4:57 am
    • I assume you have seen Richard’s behavior here before.

      Out of the 1000’s that visit this site every week, Richard is the only one who feels the need to come here and lie.

      Funny isn’t it, yet again its only Mono and Microsoft topics that get the Richard ilk slithering out of the woodwork.

      God bless Mono and talking of Mono…I see Stifu links to Jo Shields blog….of which we all remember the vulgar tirade he directed towards this blog with his use of the “C” word….of course that’s not trolling or vulgar though…..He’s a Mono advocate!

      Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 8:57 pm
      • “Out of the 1000’s that visit this site every week, Richard is the only one who feels the need to come here and lie.”

        So you’re trying to single him out to make him look wrong, and all alone in his cause. Smart.
        But then, that means you’re implying I’m not lying. And since my opinion is similar to Richard’s, it doesn’t make much sense to say one of us is lying while the other isn’t. On the other hand, saying there’s more than one liar around makes your argument less strong, as then it can’t be just a single random crazy person, since there are more of them. Oh well, can’t have it both ways.

        Posted by Stifu | February 10, 2010, 9:19 pm
  13. Quote “So you’re trying to single him out to make him look wrong, and all alone in his cause. Smart.

    Yes, because everytime he comes here he tells lies that I disprove. He couldn’t even return today without doing it….

    Notice his claims about me calling you a thief? Or what about a list of regular commenters who he claims take everything I say (easily disproved if you look back just a couple of posts)

    Quote “But then, that means you’re implying I’m not lying.”

    Er what have you lied about? You’ve given your opinion. It would have been simpler (and better) if, instead of coming here and immediately making an allegation about me trolling my own site, you had said something like:

    “I think Paint.net is a great package, I welcome Pinta. I think you are wrong about Mono because…………and I think you are wrong about .net because………..”

    Then we could have had a proper debate. Instead of that you came here with some cheap attempt to make an argument out of very little. The point here is more fundamentally the removal of Gimp (which is something that has been running for a while)

    Quote “saying there’s more than one liar around ”

    With Richard, readers can disprove his lies immediately. Did I call you a thief? Of course I didn’t and as Richard is fully aware (since he visits here enough to disrupt) my take is that “theft ” is a poor choice of words in respect of the data/copyright issue.

    FYI I am not saying there is more than one liar..I am saying that Richard is the same person as all those handles. You can judge for yourself by comparing the style of them all. They all tell lies, they all get disproved and they all appear on some of the occassions Mono (or Microsoft) is mentioned on
    this site.

    _Mutex_ is a visitor to BN IRC and Amicus Curious is a frequenter of Comp.Os.Linux.Advocacy where he does the same to anyone who supports/advocates or praises Linux.

    Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 9:34 pm
  14. @openbytes: oh boy, it’s getting lower and lower.

    “Grow up. Let me remind you what YOU said:

    “Congrats, A+ trolling.”

    On my own blog? Trolling? – Learn the definition then don’t comment if you don’t want to read it.”

    I love it how you quote me, all proud, implying there is some kind of blatant contradiction in what I’ve said… but guess what? There isn’t. You’re trolling on your own blog, period. Nothing constructive or anything, just trolling. It’s not that complicated, is it? Now let’s move on.

    “Ah the joke…..yes I often see that one when people can’t argue….have you ever considered a career on TV? You’re quite the comedian !?”

    I seriously expected that come back. Too predictable. :| Not worth arguing: you either get it or you don’t.

    “That’s funny, by looking at your site I thought you had written one simple rom editor and used RPG maker. I’m sure you could teach David Braben a thing or two..!?! LOL.”

    The simple ROM editor is the .NET app I work on during my spare time. The RPG Maker is something I used 10 years ago, before getting into programming (I *already* stated that my site is old and doesn’t represent my current interests, remember?). .NET dev is also what I do for a living, but I obviously don’t put my professional work up for show on my own little private site.

    Let’s stop here for a second, though. I’m having trouble understanding what’s funny there, or what there is to ridicule about my site or my hobbies. Don’t take me wrong, I’m not offended or anything, far from that. But it’s just… very stupid of you.
    I understand you’re trying to make fun of me on all fronts, trying to make me look as bad as possible to squash adversity or whatever (feel free to word that better, you get the idea), but it doesn’t make much sense in the end. By trying to put down everything the other person has to say (or everything the person is, ie: personal attacks), you’re seriously hurting your credibility. It’s like that Boycott Novell nutjob: if he didn’t criticize EVERY SINGLE thing coming from Novell or Microsoft, that’d help his credibility a little. But nooo, like you, he has to make it look like something is either all white or all black, no nuance. No matter how I look at it, this behavior is just stupid.

    Oh, and please don’t reply with something alone the lines of “NO U!”, or I’ll just pretend you didn’t reply.

    Ever heard of the concept of “conceding”? Look it up, study it, and think about it. It really may help your credibility. It’s something I studied at school, but I guess everyone isn’t so lucky.
    Acting like things are either 100% or 0%, nothing in between, doesn’t make your arguments any stronger or anything. It just makes you look like a moron.

    “the fact that you don’t know (or even researched) who is actually commenting here is actually quite insulting to them….. These are not RPGmaker/.net fanboys.”
    So this is how you’re trying to single me out, painting me as a black sheep or something? My presence or behavior is “insulting” because I’m a Windows / .NET user, or because I don’t share your opinion? *sigh*
    You post something about Pinta / Mono, which is a topic that interests me, and so I comment on it. That’s about it. If this blog is some kind of anti-MS, anti-Mono Linux zealot sect, then put warnings around, clearly saying people like me are not welcome.

    Say, my user agent shows I’m on Windows right now, you could detect that and insult Windows users. How does that sound?

    Posted by Stifu | February 10, 2010, 9:53 pm
    • Firstly read the above comment re: Trolling, its simple if you believe thats the case and IT IS a new concept since my blog, my comment. If you think its trolling then “don’t feed the trolls” and certainly don’t come here will your silly remarks. Im not “proud” of anything, do you think I like having to repeat myself and correct people like yourself who have nothing else to do but comment on blogs with your silly concepts?

      Quote “I seriously expected that come back. Too predictable. Not worth arguing: you either get it or you don’t.”

      and I could say exactly the same about the previous comment and that one.

      How about we settle this and I make an open email to the companies concerned. Since they are the ones with ownership then they can give the definitive word as to if you have permission. How about that?

      Quote “The simple ROM editor is the .NET app I work on during my spare time. The RPG Maker is something I used 10 years ago,”

      What is the relevance of this tot? I find it very strange that a “professional coder” would infringe copyright but there you go.

      Quote “Let’s stop here for a second, though. I’m having trouble understanding what’s funny there, or what there is to ridicule about my site or my hobbies. ”

      Nothing at all, if you want to use RPGmaker thats your business, although your comment of:

      ” the other way around: the fact many people are wrong doesn’t make them right.””

      In respect of the comenters here who I pointed out (if you care to research) are a little more advanced and knowlegable than to play around with high level D&D dev kits.

      Quote ” Don’t take me wrong, I’m not offended or anything, far from that. But it’s just… very stupid of you.”

      Of course…and remember who the one is with nearly 1000 unique readers a day…check the stats I display them for all to see.

      Quote “I understand you’re trying to make fun of me on all fronts,”

      Really? I see nothing funny in your site, nor the claims you made about me. Maybe ive missed your humor….I certainly missed the joke you claimed to make re: copyright.

      Personal attacks? What about your copyright issues? Ok, lets settle this as I say and send an open email to the companies concerned. I am anti-piracy I always have been (not just because you have turned up) if you look back many months on my blog, you will see I interviewed Indiana Gregg (singer) and have frequently comments Digital Economy Bill. I digress, but the point being I had strong opinions on piracy/copyright before you appears and will continue to do so after you leave, which brings me onto my next subject nicely…

      Roy from Boycott Novell. What he has to do with this I don’t know. I repeat I have openly expressed different views to Roy on many occassions, we debate like adults and I enjoy visiting BN IRC. Before you try to suggest that its a BN club in that IRC channel, let me remind you that Jono Bacon from Canonical team chats in there. Its a chat room for many opinions and a damn good one at that.

      Quote “Acting like things are either 100% or 0%, nothing in between, ”

      Really? Check out my opinions of proprietary in Ubuntu, Ubuntu One for Windows, Windows XP……then come back. Infact I said as much in a recent post about “being somewhere inbetween” in respect of deployments of software on my rigs.

      Quote “Ever heard of the concept of “conceding”? Look it up, study it, and think about it. It really may help your credibility. It’s something I studied at school, but I guess everyone isn’t so lucky.”

      Silly attempt to cheapen. Grow up and debate properly. You think that would prevent me responding or give you fodder for a comeback? Don’t be so transparent.

      Quote “My presence or behavior is “insulting” because I’m a Windows / .NET user, or because I don’t share your opinion? *sigh*”

      No…*sigh* read what I put, I even suggested to you how to debate like an adult. If its still not clear look back at the times when Microsoft employee’s have visited and we have had polite sensible debate.

      Quote “So this is how you’re trying to single me out, painting me as a black sheep or something? My presence or behavior is “insulting” because I’m a Windows / .NET user, or because I don’t share your opinion? *sigh*”

      Not at all, to be fair I don’t believe a pro-coder would have a site like yours and I don’t believe a pro-coder would have any involvement with (or admit to) usage of something like RPGmaker. A pro-coder has spend years honing their craft but then thats just my opinion and we can’t prove who is right.

      Quote “You post something about Pinta / Mono, which is a topic that interests me, and so I comment on it. That’s about it. If this blog is some kind of anti-MS, anti-Mono Linux zealot sect, then put warnings around, clearly saying people like me are not welcome.”

      I’ll tackle the first part. Thats fine. I suggested how you should have engaged in debate (instead of a childish A+ trolling comment on your first post) and moving on to your “anti Mono Linux” comment, you have just proved how predictable Mono advocates are.

      Quote “…clearly saying people like me are not welcome.”

      Everyone is welcome (even Richard) otherwise you would be simply blocked. If you want to debate like an adult (as in the case of people with different views to me) you are more than welcome. If you want to come here and lie (like Richard) or try cheapening tactics from the word go (like you) then expect me to respond with the respect and courtesy that I receive.

      “Say, my user agent shows I’m on Windows right now, you could detect that and insult Windows users. How does that sound?”

      What are you wittering about now? Until last week, I had a Windows 7 rig to the left of me on my desk at home. Ive got a couple of netbooks which I regularly use with XP on them and infact still have a desktop XP rig in my outhouse. I support Linux/FOSS however you do know there is FOSS software on the Windows platform don’t you?

      Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 10:27 pm
      • That’s it for me, I’ve wasted enough time here.

        If you’re going to deny everything single thing I say, then what’s the point? Like, I may not be a pro dev, making everything up – Wait, maybe I’m not even a person, who knows? I just can’t prove it.
        And you’re so obsessed with things that are TOTALLY irrelevant, like how you keep bringing up RPG Maker just because my site shows I used to use it… You can’t be sane. ¬_¬

        … And after that, you’re telling me to grow up, and want to teach me how to debate properly? Man, I feel like my IQ is dropping every time I read one of your replies. Ciao.

        Posted by Stifu | February 10, 2010, 10:46 pm
  15. @openbytes:

    “Yes, its equally as silly…even if you are right…then “Dont feed the trolls” would be the response and if you believe what you claim, then why on earth comment in the first place?”

    Don’t put words in my mouth, I didn’t say I wouldn’t feed the troll. :)
    Sometimes you just can’t help it, you know?

    But I guess my main motivation is just be to show “the other side” (ie: pro-Mono) to the people reading the comments here, so they have more information to form their own opinion. It’d be a shame if they missed out on Mono just because a group of people gave them a bad image of it.

    Posted by Stifu | February 10, 2010, 10:12 pm
    • see my comment above…Words in your mouth? Where did I suggest you said “don’t feed the trolls”? I was giving you advice…Let me remind you what I said:

      “even if you are right…then “Dont feed the trolls” would be the response”

      See? Understand? Please try to remember what I say, I dislike having to repeat myself.

      Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 10:28 pm
      • “See? Understand? Please try to remember what I say, I dislike having to repeat myself.”

        Hahaha! This is coming from a person who needed to be told 4 times how it was possible that he was trolling on his own blog, and who still doesn’t seem to get it. :)

        Posted by Stifu | February 10, 2010, 10:34 pm
    • Ah, so my opinion is a bad image and you being “pro” is a good one?

      This is about equal balance, although to be fair you have given no advantages of why it should be adopted. Where is your balance?

      In addition where is the plethora of support for this “gift to the world”. If I made a remark like “Photoshop is crap” I would get a mass of people telling me its wrong. Why don’t we get the same mass support for Mono? Maybe everyone else is wrong and Mono is right?

      Who knows? I give my opinions, you can give yours. But to be fair you have given no “more information” on Mono for people to make a choice infact if memory serves one of the last comments you made was about hiding the “fatness” of .net. Great advocacy there.

      Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 11:30 pm
  16. So no response to my previous comments to you. Fine. You want to still try the “troll” line.

    Really? So my opinion on my blog (because its different to yours) is trolling? Ok. Just because you don’t like it? Ok. Thats your opinion.

    I hope next time you can come back with a better argument than that. You suggest that I am trying to single you out?

    You’ve done that all by yourself.

    Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 10:44 pm
  17. rpg maker? wtf? what a lamer!

    Posted by SkidROW_ | February 10, 2010, 10:48 pm
    • Very bad timing Paul, he’s a little sensitive about that subject.

      @Stifu

      Since your last post is in the middle of many previous ones, I’ll quote you here, I know you’ll return so Im sure you will read this.

      Quote ”

      That’s it for me, I’ve wasted enough time here.

      If you’re going to deny everything single thing I say, then what’s the point? Like, I may not be a pro dev, making everything up – Wait, maybe I’m not even a person, who knows? I just can’t prove it.”

      I would say that from the first post you wasted your time, you were not interested in debate, just merely tried to insult and provoke a response. Go back and read your very first post here. Again, try to remember.

      Quote “And you’re so obsessed with things that are TOTALLY irrelevant, like how you keep bringing up RPG Maker just because my site shows I used to use it… You can’t be sane. ¬_¬”

      Im not, I just find it funny how an RPG making copyright infringer can come here with a weak argument and refuse to debate properly. Moving themselves into the realms of the completely irrelevant. Like I say, debate like an adult, you will always be welcome here regardless of your opinion.

      Quote “Man, I feel like my IQ is dropping every time I read one of your replies. Ciao.”

      Really? Thats possible? Cheap insult, so to return one in kind – I wouldn’t worry if your IQ drops, rpg maker is not that demanding a package.

      Kind regards
      Look forward to your return.

      Goblin.

      Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 10:59 pm
  18. @Everyone else,

    I had predicted this type of response on Twitter some days ago. Why is it only with Mono that people don’t like others expressing their opinions of it?

    Even my most popular posts don’t get the silliness we see with Mono defenders.

    For the record I am not anti. If I was I would campaign for you not to use it.

    Since this is my blog, I feel I am entitled to my opinion. I’ve given my views and my reasons for wanting no part of it, now if you decide to use it or not it is of no interest to me, its your decision and only you know whats best for your needs.

    What I do ask is that if you do support it, why not comment here sensibly and we can have a decent discussion. Mono – the one subject that never gets a sensible debate going, even Microsofts own employee’s can do a good job of defending their stance here. Whats wrong with Mono?

    Keep in mind that this whole post was based around Canonical’s GIMP intentions and does not even touch on the issues surrounding patents and Mono.

    Regards as always
    Goblin.

    Posted by openbytes | February 10, 2010, 11:07 pm
  19. I’ve been using GIMP for a while. For me its quite a good program but a few features are missing as to my observations. Making logos are good but could have been a little easier for a small program like this. but overall, i give 7/10 for this cutie..

    Posted by Luke Ironwhite | February 12, 2010, 11:31 pm

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Pingback: More Mono and Patent Poison from Novell | Boycott Novell - February 9, 2010

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

about.me

Tim Wilson

Tim Wilson

Writer/Novelist of many facets both in the world of technology and fantasy/sci-fi. Co-host of the TechBytes audiocast and writer for both OpenBytes and Goblin's Domain. Supporter of free and open source software.

Stats

  • 515,239 readers

Follow Tim on Twitter

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 7,214 other followers